• FarraigePlaisteach@lemmy.world
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    22 hours ago

    Germany are not the moral bastions you are portraying them as. Calling human rights supporters terrorists while you cosy up to genocidal regimes is plainly dishonest.

        • Noja@sopuli.xyz
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          20 hours ago

          Sorry but why do they keep using hamas’ triangle symbol if they don’t support hamas?

          Employees reported that they were asked to leave their offices in English that was difficult to understand and under threat of violence. People who did not comply were physically attacked

          Berliner Zeitung

          traumatizing random employees, great way to protest /s

        • TanteRegenbogen@feddit.org
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          21 hours ago

          No, 1. Likud and Otzma are. Israel absolutely deserves a better government. 2. I never said that. However there are a lot of protesters at these protests who don’t shy away from putting Hamas in a positive light and push antisemitic narratives. Also there has been many instances where neonazi actors have attended pro-Palestine protests and werent ousted. 3. So it is bad faith when I disagree with you?

          • Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.orgM
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            19 hours ago

            Also there has been many instances where neonazi actors have attended pro-Palestine protests and werent ousted.

            Please link sources for that statement.

              • Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.orgM
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                18 hours ago

                Thanks.

                DeepL, no quality check

                Translation 1

                WDR research shows: Corona deniers and right-wing extremists are also trying to profit from pro-Palestinian demonstrations. The NRW Office for the Protection of the Constitution is alarmed.

                A demonstration in Cologne at the end of October, a good two weeks after Hamas’ terrorist attack on Israel. Hundreds of people have gathered right next to the cathedral. The title of the rally: “Solidarity for Palestine”. A woman takes the microphone and shouts: “We are enslaved here by our government. Not just in Germany, all governments worldwide.”

                She speaks of “13 bloodlines that rule over 8 billion people”. The people applaud. The speaker is Bianca Paffenholz, the best-known face from Cologne’s conspiracy ideology scene. Most recently with the group “Cologne is active” at Corona demos, she is now trying to mobilize with the topic of Palestine.

                Daniel Vymyslicki was at the demonstration to record anti-Semitic incidents for the Cologne Documentation Center for the History of National Socialism. The “13 bloodlines” are clearly an anti-Semitic conspiracy narrative: “It is the idea that a few powerful families rule the whole world. Such ideas already existed under National Socialism.”

                A corona denier at a pro-Palestine demonstration - this has been seen time and again in recent weeks. Reporters have documented this at several demonstrations in NRW for the WDR magazine Westpol. The research shows how new alliances are being formed in the course of the current war in the Middle East. New alliances - from lateral thinkers to right-wing extremists

                At several pro-Palestinian demonstrations, people appeared who are known in the corona denialist scene or through pro-Russian calls, share conspiracy narratives and disinformation online or have been classified as right-wing extremists by the Office for the Protection of the Constitution for years. Some belong to parties such as Jürgen Todenhöfer’s “Justice Party”, “Die Basis” or “Aufbruch Frieden-Souveränität-Gerechtigkeit”.

                Daniel Vymyslicki from the Cologne Documentation Center for the History of National Socialism explains the new activity by the fact that other topics are just no longer gaining traction: “The coronavirus pandemic simply no longer has the social relevance it once had. This is now an attempt to find new supporters.”

                A surprising alliance for him: “In the conspiracy theory scene in NRW, we’ve been very close to the far-right scenes since the coronavirus pandemic. In this respect, it’s not really natural to stand up for the interests of the Palestinian people. But we can see that hatred of Israel, which usually only masks anti-Semitism, is the glue that brings these different groups together on both sides.”

                NRW Interior Minister Herbert Reul (CDU) takes a similar view: “As soon as the cause, such as the coronavirus pandemic, has subsided, they are suddenly supporters of Hamas. For them, it’s actually about being against the ‘system’, against the establishment.” The NRW Office for the Protection of the Constitution is alarmed by the new alliances that are forming at demonstrations and online.

                Former CDU politician and journalist Jürgen Todenhöfer has also often appeared at lateral thinking demonstrations. At the beginning of November, he spoke at a demonstration in Düsseldorf, which according to the police was attended by 17,000 people - and used lateral thinking slogans. “Don’t just give the Palestinians their freedom, but finally give the Germans back their freedom of opinion, their civil courage”, Todenhöfer shouted to the crowd, “Put an end to the nationwide dictatorship of [mainstream] opinion”.

                Todenhöfer now has his own party, “Team Todenhöfer”, with which he also wants to run in the European elections in NRW next year. The pro-Palestinian demonstrations give him the opportunity to reach more Muslims or people with a history of migration.

                “We see that people and accounts like Jürgen Todenhöfer’s are exploiting this window of opportunity very professionally,” says Özgür Özvatan from the Berlin Institute for Empirical Integration and Migration Research. “They are clearly targeting people who are angry and sad about the war. But also to other people who are frustrated with the way democracy works.”

                When asked by WDR, Todenhöfer wrote that he had been campaigning against war and for peace long before founding his party. It is sad that people in Germany are no longer allowed to criticize the wars of some countries. He also condemned the Hamas terror attack on Israel on October 7.

                At the Düsseldorf demonstration, Todenhöfer joined Muslim influencers such as Issam Bayan and Serhat Sisik on stage. They reach tens of thousands of followers on social media. Their topics appeal to Muslim people in particular.

                Some of them also share questionable content, e.g. from “Generation Islam”. Security authorities attribute the organization to the Islamist group Hizb-ut-Tahrir. This in turn is officially monitored by the NRW Office for the Protection of the Constitution. It denies Israel’s right to exist and is not allowed to operate in Germany. A particularly extreme form of cooperation between radicals of various persuasions was seen at another demonstration in Cologne on November 18. It was called by the splinter party “Aufbruch Frieden, Souveränität, Gerechtigkeit”, an alliance of right-wing extremists, a Salafist and pro-Russian propagandists whose leading members are under observation by the Office for the Protection of the Constitution.

                They have invited the publicist Christoph Hörstel, who repeatedly shares conspiracy ideology content on his Telegram channel. At the demonstration, he distributed a flyer showing him together with one of the leaders of Hamas. In his speech, he calls the Hamas terror attack on November 7 “self-defense” and denies Israel’s right to exist: “My conviction is now: It will not be possible to do anything with Israel. We must develop the willingness to dismantle this state.”

                NRW Interior Minister Reul speaks of a “serious phenomenon” that can be seen at the demonstrations and on the internet. For him, it is clear that the various groups want to instrumentalize the protests: “They want to create unrest in society and naturally seize the opportunity to use the event for their own purposes.” The Office for the Protection of the Constitution will be keeping a close eye on this development.

                Translation 2

                Demo planned in Cologne Islamists, right-wingers and Putin fans drum up opposition to Israel

                On Sunday, hundreds of people want to show their solidarity with Palestine at Cologne Central Station. Among them: “lateral thinkers”, right-wing extremists and Putin loyalists.

                A pro-Palestinian demonstration is to take place next Sunday at Cologne Central Station. It is being organized by the party “Aufbruch Frieden-Souveränität-Gerechtigkeit” - known for the right-wing extremist André Poggenburg and the Cologne-based Putin propagandist Elena Kolbasnikova. The pro-Russian activist is the former chairwoman of the party, but her successor, Markus Beisicht, is also no stranger to the party.

                Beisicht, a lawyer and politician, made it onto the Leverkusen city council in 2020 with his party “Aufbruch Leverkusen”. He was previously active in the far-right, anti-Islam and anti-constitutional party “Pro-NRW” and defended right-wing extremists and neo-Nazis in court as a lawyer. Just like Elena Kolbasnikova herself, who was sentenced to a fine by the Cologne district court for approving the war of aggression against Ukraine. Her apartment has already been stormed by a special task force.

                During the coronavirus pandemic, Beisicht railed against infection control measures and vaccinations, and since Vladimir Putin’s war of aggression against Ukraine, he and like-minded people have stood by the Russian president: anti-infection control, pro-Putin and now also pro-Palestine.

                On the Telegram channel of “Aufbruch Frieden-Souveränität-Gerechtigkeit”, the organizers call for participation in the Sunday demonstration at the main train station. After all, the “FRG authorities” are trying to prevent “what is currently happening in the Gaza Strip from being spoken about truthfully on the streets of Germany.” There is not a word about the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists against the Israeli civilian population on October 7.

                Journalist Christoph Hörstel is also due to give a speech at the rally at Cologne Central Station; he has already attracted attention in the past for his anti-Israeli statements. Hörstel’s participation was announced by “Aufbruch Frieden-Souveränität-Gerechtigkeit” on Telegram and with flyers. In 2012, for example, he said in an interview with an Iranian government broadcaster that the German raison d’état on Israel’s right to exist was “complete political nonsense”. He also appeared for many years at the al-Quds Day in Berlin, which is organized by the mullah regime in Iran. Hörstel also believes that the US government is poisoning the population with so-called chemtrails, i.e. chemicals released by airplanes. During the coronavirus pandemic, Beisicht railed against infection control measures and vaccinations, and since Vladimir Putin’s war of aggression against Ukraine, he and like-minded people have stood by the Russian president: anti-infection control, pro-Putin and now also pro-Palestine.

                On the Telegram channel of “Aufbruch Frieden-Souveränität-Gerechtigkeit”, the organizers call for participation in the Sunday demonstration at the main train station. After all, the “FRG authorities” are trying to prevent “what is currently happening in the Gaza Strip from being spoken about truthfully on the streets of Germany.” There is not a word about the atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists against the Israeli civilian population on October 7.

                Limit of comment-lenght

                • Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.orgM
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                  18 hours ago

                  Rest of 2:

                  Bernhard Falk is also due to give a speech on Breslauer Platz on Sunday. Falk used to be a left-wing terrorist and was sentenced to 13 years in prison in 1999 for four counts of attempted murder and several explosives offenses. He had planned an assassination attempt on an SPD politician. In the meantime, Falk has slipped from one extreme to the other: today, the former bomb-maker is an Islamist and supporter of the Russian war of aggression as well as the treasurer of “Aufbruch Frieden-Souveränität-Gerechtigkeit”.

                  At the request of t-online, the Cologne police announced that 500 participants had been registered for the rally on Sunday. The police will accompany the rally. At the same time, a counter-demonstration will take place on Breslauer Platz, organized by the association “Cityofhope Köln e.V.”. Under the slogan “Against the axis of evil”, the demonstrators want to show solidarity with Ukraine and Israel as well as for a free Iran.

                  According to the Cologne police, 30 participants have registered for the counter-demonstration, which will take place on Breslauer Platz from 1 pm.

                  On October 7, terrorists from the Islamist group Hamas attacked Israel and killed at least 1,200 people, most of them civilians. Hundreds more were deported to the Gaza Strip. Since then, the Middle East conflict has intensified again and Israel is currently conducting a ground offensive in the coastal area.

                  According to the Ministry of Health in the Gaza Strip, which is controlled by Hamas, around 15,000 Palestinians have died in Israeli attacks. These figures cannot be verified objectively.

                  Correction note: A previous version of the article stated that Elena Kolbasnikova is the leader of the party “Awakening Peace-Sovereignty-Justice”. This is not correct. Kolbasnikova has also not been a member of the party since November 2023. Markus Beisicht is the chairman of the “Aufbruch Frieden-Souveränität-Gerechtigkeit” party.

            • Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.orgM
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              20 hours ago

              I will delete this comment within 1 hour if you are not going to:

              Accept that the state Israel (or country Y) and the Israeli government (or government Y) are not the same. Please edit that part of your comment concerning that fact.

              Please add sources for the following part of your comment: “People are being deported with no charges other than protest itself. There are countless articles detailing this.” Or delete that part of your comment.

              Please link the comment you are refering to while stating that TanteRegenbogen supported “Executing children and UN peace workers with their hands tied behind their backs” If you are not able to, delete that part of the comment.

              If I already deleted that comment, here it is for more context for people who haven't seen it before it got deleted.
              1. Those are the current Israeli state so you’re playing with semantics.
              2. People are being deported with no charges other than protest itself. There are countless articles detailing this.
              3. It’s bad faith to define any criticism of a genocidal regime as “antisemitism” (or hate speech, as you call it).

              Zoom out a little and see what you’re defending:

              • “Hate speech” ❌
              • Executing children and UN peace workers with their hands tied behind their backs ✅
            • Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.orgM
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              20 hours ago

              Those are the current Israeli state so you’re playing with semantics.

              The state Israel and the Israeli government are not the same.

              Executing children and UN peace workers with their hands tied behind their backs ✅

              Please be more specific about what you are referring to. I haven’t seen any commenty of TanteRegenbogen defending that.

              • wronggermgerm@lemmy.cafe
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                2 hours ago

                The current israeli governement and their policy is the expression of the democratic will of its people, at least if you accept Israel is a democracy.

                And if it’s not, then I really don’t know why Germans think it’s a good idea to support them.

                In any case, arguing for the continuation of a genocidal state is not only pretty fucked up morally, but also against international law. Do you also think we should have had a fourth reich without Hitler? The red Khmer without Pol Pot maybe?

              • FarraigePlaisteach@lemmy.world
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                20 hours ago

                However when you support their government militarily and diplomatically, you support their ethnic cleansing.

                Regarding your last point, it is clear that that Germany finds certain speech so offensive that the people saying it should be jettisoned from the county. Yet Germany lends significant support to a state whose behaviour is literally deadly. To take issue with the former while supporting (or even ignoring) the latter is pure hypocrisy.

                • TanteRegenbogen@feddit.org
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                  19 hours ago

                  We are simply asking you to differentiate between the Israeli state and the Israeli government. It is absolutely okay in Germany to be against Netanyahu/Likud/Otzma/the current ruling government of Israel. But the issue is that you generalize Israel as a whole which includes it’s people. No one here is against Palestine. People here are against Hamas, but it seems even being against Hamas gets people downvoted in this thread, which is not okay.

            • TanteRegenbogen@feddit.org
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              20 hours ago

              Your argument is that a country is at least as dangerous as a terrorist group but if I said Palestine as a nation is as dangerous as the IDF, you’d be up in arms saying I cant make sweeping generalizations about Palestinians. Think about that.

              1. All those articles leave out the critical details that those protesters are accused of committing crimes. Meanwhile there are a number of German language articles that say that they arent at risk of deportation just because of protesting.

              2. It is anti-semitic to generalize the entire populace of Israel and be against it’s existence.

              3. Where did I do that? Hate speech includes anti-Palestinian and anti-Israeli narratives.

              4. I am not defending that. And you accuse me of arguing in bad faith?

              • FarraigePlaisteach@lemmy.world
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                19 hours ago
                1. Arguing against the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (which I’ve yet to hear you take issue with) does not equal arguing the same for Israel. “Never again” was supposed to be for everybody, regardless of their religion, skin colour etc.
                2. Israel’s head of state himself has been found guilty of committing crimes. You cannot ask for rule of law against one group and support another lawless group. Thank about that.
                3. Again, don’t put words in my mount. As you know well, I did not say that.
                4. Until there is an end to the genocide, acting passively supports the greater aggressor.
                5. I am glad you are not defending that.
                • TanteRegenbogen@feddit.org
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                  19 hours ago
                  1. I never said that. You however generalize Israel and don’t differentiate between the people and the government. You don’t argue that way about Palestine, but say Hamas are the baddies. Why don’t you leave that double standard and just argue against the Israeli government and the IDF leadership?
                  2. No contention. However see point 1.
                  3. Change your narrative because you implied.
                  4. Don’t deflect.
                  • wronggermgerm@lemmy.cafe
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                    2 hours ago

                    Because we keep hearing that israel is a democracy while Hamas is not lmao you guys aren’t afraid of contradiction I see.

                  • Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.orgM
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                    18 hours ago

                    You both a starting to entangle yourselfes in a never ending comment fight. I now allow you to post one more comment per person among my comment right here and after those comments I will start delete any comment you might further post in this thread. This does not affect the rest of the comment section, only this thread.

                    Personal note: I think you both are not as apart regarding your opinion as you might think. Write a conclusion, stop fighting, find something to agree on.