Update:
The comments from this post will not be removed as to preserve the discussion around the announcement. Any continued discussions outside of this thread that violate server rules will be removed. We feel that everyone that has an opinion, and wanted to vent, has been heard.
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Original post:
Yesterday, we received information about the planned federation by Hexbear. The announcement thread can be found here: https://www.hexbear.net/post/280770. After reviewing the thread and the comments, it became evident that allowing Hexbear to federate would violate our rules.
Our code of conduct and server rules can be found here.
The announcement included several concerning statements, as highlighted below:
- “Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated.”
- “The West’s role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.”
- “These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term “rules-based international order.” It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”
The rhetoric and goal of Hexbar are clear based on their announcement: to “dismantle western propaganda” and "demolish organizations such as NATO” shows that Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.” It’s to push their beliefs and ideology.
In addition, several comments from a Hexbear admin, demonstrate that instance rules will not be respected.
Here are some examples:
“I can assure you there will be no lemmygrad brigades, that energy would be better funneled into the current war against liberalism on the wider fediverse.”
“All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.”
- https://lemmy.world/comment/121850
- https://lemmy.world/comment/1487168
- https://lemmy.world/comment/1476084
- https://lemmy.world/comment/171595
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3648500
Overall community comments:
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3526128
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3526086
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3652828
To clarify, for those who have inquired about why Hexbear versus Lemmygrad, it should be noted that we are currently exploring the possibility of defederating from Lemmygrad as well based on similar comments Hexbear has made.
- https://lemmygrad.ml/post/158656
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/882559
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/540170
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/446529
Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. However, based on their comments and behavior, no positive outcomes can be expected.
We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons. While we understand that not everyone may agree with our decision, we believe it is important to prioritize the best interests of our community.
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Good. I commented earlier about how horrible hexbear was. I signed up for hexbear, hoping to meet leftists, but these are not leftists. They just parrot Chinese/Russian propaganda. They have no original takes, no critical thinking. Call me whatever, but, I’m pro NATO. I don’t give a shit about what bullshit propaganda you show me from a totalitarian regime. If the U.S. is bad, then the CCP is pure evil.
If you want to meet leftist, you will meet people who are against NATO and who know all the evil the USA has done. Those are entities that have spent the last 100 years genociding left leaning people with the help of fascist groups all around the world, so of course we aren’t friendly to them. If you aren’t aware of that, you may be from Europe, so I suggest you research Operation Gladio to have an example of what they did here, to their supposed allied countries.
If you’re not open to those ideas, I really don’t understand why you were hoping to meet leftists.
Being against NATO is concisely being Pro-Russian. You cannot separate the two as NATO only continues to exist as a counter to Russian nuclear imperial ambitions.
It is possible to be critical of the US without pro-Russian stances.
what? lmao you can absolutely be against NATO and not be hollering and hooting for Russia. This isn’t a Marvel movie, you can have nuanced takes with what is a proxy world war decades in the making
Not really. NATO only has a single purpose: Containing Russia’s imperial ambitions. No NATO, Russia goes whole hog reclaiming the land they consider “theirs” as we are currently seeing in Ukraine.
It is like saying “I can support worker’s rights but I’m against unions”
If you take away the protection the imperialists will do the imperialism thing.
- bombing yugoslavia famously because Hillary Clinton requested the bombing and Bill relented that was the first time she talked to him in 8 months after the Lewinsky scandal
- bombing kosovo creating more death and destruction than the conflict had until that point
- funding stay behind missions in europe like Operation Gladio
- Hiring wehrmacht generals as 3 star NATO generals (Hans Speidel and Adolf Heusinger)
- economically crushing the poorer countries within the EU with loaded IMF loans
are weird ways to contain russia’s ambitions
it’s also really weird to refuse several offers of peace from russia in the last 20 years and instead march aggressively towards them, going back on every agreement back dating back to Yeltsin (really, further back than that but we’re talking Russia post-USSR here). seems like those leftists might have something of a decent critique around an organisation doing those things since its inception
Ah here goes the fun one where you explicitly support a genocide, confuse NATO with the IMF, and regurgitate Russian propaganda that countries that feared Russia blackmailing the US to join NATO was a “march on Russia”
This is why I said what I said, and stand by what I said: Anti-NATO is literally Russian propaganda dressed up.
i don’t know what you’re talking about with the genocide comment edit: oh you think because i criticized NATO bombing civilians, i’m pro-genocide. incredible
Greece had to take the IMF loans to continue being in NATO and the EU, that was part of the agreement
i don’t know what you’re talking about with Russian blackmailing, I was referring to the 00s expansions of NATO that violated the agreement between Russia/NATO to stop expanding
lmao you can absolutely be against NATO and not be hollering and hooting for Russia.
Sure, I don’t think anyone is really arguing against that. However when you’re against NATO right now when most, if not all, of its members are currently helping Ukraine against Russia and you are coming from an over-the-top Communist instance like hexbear it looks like nothing more than Tankies being Tankies.
the person i replied to said that you cannot be anti-NATO and anti-Russia, that is what i was responding to
What does it even mean to be “against NATO”? Is it, like, saying “the NATO alliance ought to disband because the terms of the alliance are bad for my country actually”? Is it like “I hope NATO countries lose all their wars”? Or like “NATO is a dangerous thing to exist because it allows an invasion of Country X, which is likely to happen, to result in a global thermonuclear war”?
A bunch of countries could be arming Ukraine without the sort of all-for-one, one-for-all terms of NATO specifically that make it likely to figure prominently in any explanation for why we have all died of nuclear weapons.
Critical thinking is when you believe US antiChina propaganda.
This is not a pissing contest on whose propaganda you like better. The US, Russia & China international politics have all been evil throughout history, and the only reason other nations don’t stand out as much is because they are currently not world powers. You only like NATO because you prefer their propaganda - and possibly because the p.o.s. Putler unknowingly was baited into the greatest NATO PR campaign of all times in Ukraine. Nevertheless, defederating from servers who are making statements against NATO and the western world order is a very brainwashed and dumb move.
What a disappointingly reactionary approach to federation.
I echo the dissatisfaction people have with this and won’t be donating again. This is Lemmy.world not Lemmy.(we need a safe space from the communists)
The fact you were upset about Beehaw’s defederation but then turn around and do this is massive hypocrisy.
This is you imposing your personal ideology on your users. The fact you lead with those 3 “concerning statements” tells us everything. You only like free speech when it aligns with your own beliefs.
Shame.
I have no idea who Hexbear is, but it’s well documented how th IMF and World Bank work to endebt developing countries to the US’s corporate rule and then steal all their resources… Are we… Not allowed to talk about that here?
I would like to second this. The OP reeks of opinionated bullshit. Being against NATO and a western hegemony in the world is absolutely a legitimate political opinion, whether you agree with it or not.
I’m gonna come out and say, even with the statement, I’m not in favor of preemptive defederation like this.
I know the admins of an instance are hosting us basically out of the goodness of their own hearts, and I appreciate that. And I understand they can do whatever they want, and we can move to a different instance if we want. I get it.
But I joined .world because I wanted a neutral instance that would connect with pretty much everyone unless they were particularly problematic. Could hexbear be particularly problematic? Sure, maybe. But I think there’s a big difference between defederating in response to a problem and defederating in anticipation of a potential problem, especially since the users aren’t given a chance to discuss it. Like, I know we’re not technically entitled to give our input if we’re not admins, but I think it would be nice, y’know?
If it was just some small instance of trolls that’s one thing, but hexbear is actually quite a big instance, so this is a very impactful decision. I don’t like it being made preemptively behind the scenes like this.
You don’t welcome cancer in to your body because you support all life.
Nazis and Russian trolls are not here to debate or inform. Their sole purpose is to degrade trust in democracy, spread propaganda, and other heinous shit.
Defederation is our only defense and we owe it to users to fight hate and lies.
The thing is that kind of example assumes that it is cancer. Which is something I’m not happy assuming yet, especially without discussion.
Hexbear has over 20k users. I find it hard to believe they’re all Russian trolls, or even that most of them are.
They specifically said they’re being trolls and going to brigade tbf.
That first bullet is saying “don’t do stuff that’s going to get us defederated” to their users, no? It’s a bit tongue in cheek but I feel like it’s not as aggressive as some people are describing. The whole server came from a subreddit that was very memey/shitpost.
I think their admins are doing an honest job trying to put out reminders for good behavior (**edit: I hadn’t originally followed the links to the admin’s comments elsewhere, I no longer think they’re doing an honest job), the problem is that the sub they grew from never heeded similar admonishments and their federation post explicitly says they will not be moderated for activity outside of hexbear, so it’s really just a suggestion, not a rule.
I don’t agree with anti-western ideology being a good reason for defederation, but I do expect hexbear to be a major source of trolling from past experience with r/CTH. Reddit post-Donald and post-CTH bans was a noticeably less trolly (NOT saying they’re even remotely equivalent, just both were sources of trolling and were banned at the same time).
I definitely appreciate the hesitation in defederation, but I’m in favor of defeding with both hexbear and lemmygrad.
I’ve seen more than enough “Stalin did nothing wrong posts” to know that discussions are pointless and would lead me only to frustration and a desire to drink.
okay this is freaking wild:
We need a sub dedicated to bot building, trolling and brigading effectively. Screw morals, or decency. They’re tools that maintain the status quo.
Your comment’s intent is rather dubious – why post a quote from Lemmygrad, when the original post was talking about Hexbear? I encourage you to state that your quote is from Lemmygrad within the comment itself, instead of hiding it behind a link.
What the fuck?
I was assured by this server that it has no problem with socialists. This is worse than I expected it to be, I expected a half-hearted attempt to justify this action through means other than “they’re socialists and hold socialist views”.
To the three points here:
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“Western propaganda” - Is capitalist propaganda. Of course socialists oppose it, we oppose capitalism.
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“Nato” - An anti-nato position is held by literally every single socialist organisation in Europe. You will not find a socialist org with a pro-nato position. Ffs just look at DiEM25’s position on this, it’s probably the most well known cross-nation alliance of socialist groups and parties in europe including people like Yanis Varoufakis, Jeremy Corbyn and Zizek to name a few but that really doesn’t do the size of the DiEM organising alliance justice. Even Noam Chomsky is anti-nato ffs. What the fuck are you doing acting like this is a fringe position not held by a huge number of people over here in Europe and at the forefront of leftist politics on the continent? Taking the position “you’re not allowed to be anti-nato” is blatant american imperialism.
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“It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished.” - Duh? What the fuck do the liberals running this instance think socialists believe exactly? When Marx calls for revolution do you think that we mean to continue the organisations that existed prior? No, we seek to abolish them and create new socialist organisations that serve the new socialist state we seek to create.
Absolutely mindblowing that this instance ever pretended it was going to play nicely with socialists. I’m disgusted.
Every single take above is also the take you will get from every single socialist community over on reddit. The anarchist communities will also even have an anti-nato position. Like jesus christ. I expected this post to be bad but I didn’t expect it to be “Yeah fuck socialists, oh and fuck what anarchists believe too”.
I’m flabbergasted that @[email protected] just completely lied about not intending to block based on ideology, and it’s extremely telling that Hexbear gets a pre-emptive defederation for this shit while literal actual nazis were a chore to get defederated.
Absolutely mindblowing that this instance ever pretended it was going to play nicely with socialists.
There’s folks from lemmygrad.ml and lemmy.ml all over in here which is empirical proof that lemmy.world will “play nice” with Socialists. They’ll even play nice with Communists. What they’re objecting too is the Tankie Army assembling over at hexbear and their stated intention of propagandizing every instance in the fediverse.
If you don’t like it that’s cool. Spin up an account on another instance and go on with your day. This isn’t your instance and no one here owes you anything.
Hexbear stated explicitly their intent to [allow only specific narratives (explicitly anti-free speech), they openly stated their intention to engage in content manipulation tactics and pushing propoganda, and they have a delusional take on russia’s aggression and atrocities.
You all talk about this decision being against free speech when hexbear doesn’t even permit it! So hypocritical… Even if most users on hexbear have good intentions, it doesn’t justify the nefarious means that they openly plan to engage in. If hexbear wants open discussion, then they would permit topic criticism of communism; not suppress dissenting information/discussion.
I don’t care if it’s left, right, independent, apolitical… Instances like this create echo-chamers which leads to extreme views and unhealthy communities. They shouldn’t be given an audience to try to gaslight and astroturf. And if you don’t like this decision to defederate, you can join another instance.
Saying lemmy.world is anti-free speech for this is a joke. Lemmy.world doesn’t have rules disallowing criticism of governing styles or specific governments. Hexbear does… If you all want to criticize NATO and capitalism on lemmy.world, go for it! That discussion is healthy. An instance like hexbear which only allows specific narratives and encourages nefarious practices is not a healthy instance…
Wild that you’re being downvoted for this IMO
An instance can behave like a sub or community if they wish to, assuming what you said is even true. Iirc the entire point of the fediverse is to allow groups of users to be free from spez like ban-happy/profiteering behaviour. Lemmy doesn’t exist to make you personally happy. Hexbear has its own rules for its own instance and if their community is happy with it it’ll survive and thrive.
Lemmy dot world’s decision is disappointing because they seemed open and neutral politically. But are seemingly very much not neutral and damaging for Lemmy.
Lemmy dot world’s decision is disappointing because they seemed open and neutral politically.
Bah. There’s plenty of users in here from Lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, and other leftists instances. It’s quite clear that the lemmy.world is pretty darn open ideologically. Hexbear is getting ban hammered because they’ve made it very clear that they aim to misbehave.
I don’t think they were going to, since Hexbear doesn’t actually have downvotes. Only upvotes. And the post above apparently cuts out the part where they’re told to follow the rules.
If they wanted to misbehave they could do it already. I’ve personally had posts and comments mass downvoted and people have complained elsewhere. The only thing this defederation will contribute to is an increase in alt accounts and the very misbehaviour you fear. This is a Lemmy problem, not a Hexbear one.
Bye Felicia
Going nowhere fashy fash
I have no skin in this game as I run my own instance, but well said. I couldn’t agree more with your counter points. This move, taken with the delay in defederating from fascist instances, has to be a big concern for the leftist community on LW.
I’m shocked by this post. And looking for a new instance.
I wanted an instance that doesn’t defederate based on ideology (except fascist instances) and of a generalist nature. I want to browse the wide fediverse from an instance where I’m allowed to be a socialist, but clearly lemmy.world is not the one for me.
Any recommendations?
Lemmy.ml probably? Otherwise I don’t know. It is the most competently run in terms of not engaging in this defederation bullshit outside of illegal/hate content, but it also took part in actively trying to push users to move here. I’m almost certain that they’ll regret having done that given what this community is doing though and won’t be actively promoted by lemmy.ml anymore.
Will take some time to go through the others and figure out who isn’t being ridiculous. Then I guess everyone will start promoting the one that makes the most sense.
After scanning through a few options, Lemm.ee looks extremely promising.
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I have lurked here for a long time, but I just don’t understand the logic here. I read the statement that was linked here, and it just seemed like they were saying that they should be respectful and follow our rules? … Isn’t dismantling propaganda… through “informed rhetoric” a good thing? Why are NATO, the IMF or World Bank automatically good? … Aren’t we just creating a bubble by preemptively blocking a large lemmy instance just because we don’t like their political speech? As far as I can tell they aren’t promoting racism or bigotry. Has lemmy.world preemptively banned nazi or right-wing instances?
“informed rethoric” will be some of the most piss poor arguments you have ever seen in your life.
That doesn’t necessarily mean the arguments are made in bad faith.
No, but it’s still free speech, meaning nobody is forced to listen. In this case the “persons” are lemmy instances. If you talk shit, others will walk away (defederate).
Poor arguments does not equal talking shit. And I would prefer to decide for myself who I do/don’t listen to. It’s the admins’ right to ban instances as they see fit, but I don’t see a good reason to do so preemptively. I’d rather include opinions/ideologies I don’t agree with than shut them out (as long as they follow the rules, to which Hexbear didn’t even get the chance).
Granted I only see the cherry picked statements in the post, but these things do not speak from a place of neutrality or at the very least openness. When all those things being bad is stated as close to fact, and them being against western propaganda,. They seem, to me, much less like a place that wants no propaganda and discussion of world organizations, and instead it sounds like a place that wants all of it gone and no place for western/left supportive discussion (which can be labeled propaganda, which may be a negative outlook on my side but any other site saying they do not want propaganda of one side usually isn’t very happy about arguments in favor of said side even when said thing is a fact or at least relevant to the discussion)
There were also comments very much critical of federation here because of some political joke posts. If shit post tier jokes on political figures aren’t ok things will work out. because it’s a Chinese communist it’s about, I’m also extremely sceptical of ho well.
With that said, I’m not completely against the federation, but it would require the mods to be vigilant and see if the federation doesn’t harm the general community over time. That might be a lot to ask for, since I do not know how much time and effort they already put into this already.
Why is it wrong to be critical of western propaganda?
Because “critical of western propaganda” is a front for promoting authorianism and intolerance. The “western propaganda” they’re critical of include human rights, inclusiveness, social security etc.
Every fucking “social security” that exists in the western world was achieved by those of us that wave the red flag ffs. 5 day week? Socialists. Most of your holidays? Socialists. Worker protections? Socialists. The length of your work day? Socialists. Healthcare? Socialists. Eliminating child labour? Socialists. The list goes on and on and on.
And inclusiveness? How the fuck do you work out that the only lemmy that has visible pronouns is not inclusive? 20-30% of the userbase is trans ffs. It’s MORE inclusive that this instance which has left transphobic and hateful posts up for many hours at a time on occasion. The post that looked like a relic from r/fatpeoplehate was up for 12 hours before it got taken down.
Yeah, you’re thinking of (and listening to, by the looks of it) western propaganda institutions such as the John Birch Society, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party neoliberal leadership 🙄
The society that spent the last 20 years in a murder spree in the Middle East does not get to lecture anyone about intolerance.
How many countries has America invaded in your lifetime? How many murders have American thugs committed?
