Yes there is. I asked you what you think compromise looks like in real world terms
You replied with this
So a specific compromise would be when someone says that they accept transwomen as people deserving of respect and dignity, but i dont think they should be allowed to compete in professional sports as women, you dont call them a bigot or refuse to engage with them. Its saying "could you think of a way to esure womens safety that doesnt assume all trans people are sexual predators? " when they say women should be able to feel safe in locker rooms.
That is quite explicitly a suggestion. Or rather, two suggestions.
In this suggestion, you use the word “women” as if it doesn’t apply to trans women. ie, you say “women’s safety” when you clearly means cis women’s safety. Dangerous, because it normalises the attack on trans women that they aren’t women. And dangerous because it implies that trans women are a risk to cis women, when in fact, trans women are more at risk of sexual assault and violence than cis women are! There is danger here, but it’s not coming from the trans women, and framing it as if it is, and as if that is something that should be compromised on is dangerous to trans people.
There is no compromise, when that compromise involves having our safety ignored, and our rights rolled back. That’s not compromise.
That is quite explicitly a suggestion. Or rather, two suggestions.
Yes when you (or someone) literally asked me for examples, I provided examples. You’ve taken my giving examples of things i have heard other people expressing as being my own personal suggestions. I can also give you an example of how some people believe the moon landing was faked, that doesnt mean i’m suggesting I personally believe them.
In this suggestion, you use the word “women” as if it doesn’t apply to trans women. ie, you say “women’s safety” when you clearly means cis women’s safety. Dangerous, because it normalises the attack on trans women that they aren’t women. And dangerous because it implies that trans women are a risk to cis women, when in fact, trans women are more at risk of sexual assault and violence than cis women are! There is danger here, but it’s not coming from the trans women, and framing it as if it is, and as if that is something that should be compromised on is dangerous to trans people.
Because Its something i’ve heard other cis women say, and those cis wome do not hate trans people, they arent aware of the same statistics you are, not everyone is able to follow the same news sources and some people who only get infomation on social media are subject to waves of propaganda news articles. Its one of the resons i personally got off facebook when I started seeing crazy anti-trans stuff on a completely unrelated group about a cartoon i like, this shit is EVERYWHERE and to people who are un-informed it can be scary and concerning.
You may not have a desire to engage with those people and thats totally understandable, but there should be some people who are allies, who are able to engage in those types of conversations. We live in a world where Trump won AGAIN, so clearly things are heading a certain way if drastic action isnt taken, but I’m not sure you’re going to be able to bully people into accepting that “trans women are women”, I personally agree with that statement, but at least 1/3rd of people probably never will agree with it, and a good portion are either not invested enough to care or very set in their existing ways and ideas and will take some convincing about one thing or another.
There is no compromise, when that compromise involves having our safety ignored, and our rights rolled back. That’s not compromise.
Right now we are literally having everyone’s rights rolled back because thats how fascists like Trump act when you stand up to them, I’m not saying don’t stand up to them. It’s a pretty bad sign that enough people support them and what they are doing, not just trans rights everyone’s rights are getting trashed and there is a good third or so of the population that is just going to stand by and cheer it on. I’d like to find as many allies as I can at a time like this, and to me that means finding ways to see common ground with people i have other disagreements with, for me there’s no war but the class war, and trans people are a part of that too.
not everyone is able to follow the same news sources and some people who only get infomation on social media are subject to waves of propaganda news articles.
I very much understand that. However, this conversation is a classic example of the fact that even being told those statistics and having the context made clear, doesn’t actually change anything.
You may not have a desire to engage with those people and thats totally understandable, but there should be some people who are allies, who are able to engage in those types of conversations
There are. Lots of them! It’s why I am defensive with you, because despite the existence of folk like that, you don’t see them, and instead categorise trans people as largely being “all or nothing”. You are part of the group you were just talking about. The group that isn’t exposed to the right content, and instead, only knows what they see in an actively transphobic media and social media environment.
And as I said earlier, you won’t shift your opinion, you won’t ease off and stop fighting me, to become one of those people that helps trans folk. Instead, you’ll fight me, for daring to take issue with your framing of the situation, whilst blaming me for it at the same time.
Right now we are literally having everyone’s rights rolled back because thats how fascists like Trump act when you stand up to them
That’s our common ground right there. Yet instead of talking about that, you’re suggesting that actually, giving in and being ok with some of those rollbacks might be ok, as long as its trans people!
If you want allyship against facism, focus on the facism, rather than demanding that your allies capitulate to it
at what point did i suggest rolling back rights for anyone?
When you said we should accept our removal from sports, and that we should be open to exclusion from the ability to use bathrooms in public.
As I said though, this conversation is an example of why you don’t see the behaviour you’re asking for. It’s because the responses always look like yours.
I am against the remove of trans people from sports, but i also realize that sports are not a “right” and you can’t walk back something you never had in the first place. Sports are only accessible to privileged people to begin with.
I think all public bathrooms should be gender neutral or single person only.
The right being lost isn’t the right to play sports. It’s the right to equality.
And it’s great that your for something that isn’t going to happen in our lifetimes. But in the mean time, trans people have to navigate the situation we do have.
Yeah exactly so nothing i mentioned was actually rolling anything back, trans people never had equality, women never had equality, minorities do not have equality. You will never have equality under a capitalist system unless you have the $$$ and lawyers to backup your demands for it,.
But please keep being loud about how everyone who disagrees with you is trying to take away your rights (the ones you never had to begin with) and making up strawmen to argue with so you don’t have to address anything in reality. I’m sure you’ll make progress any day now with that attitude.
Yes there is. I asked you what you think compromise looks like in real world terms
You replied with this
That is quite explicitly a suggestion. Or rather, two suggestions.
In this suggestion, you use the word “women” as if it doesn’t apply to trans women. ie, you say “women’s safety” when you clearly means cis women’s safety. Dangerous, because it normalises the attack on trans women that they aren’t women. And dangerous because it implies that trans women are a risk to cis women, when in fact, trans women are more at risk of sexual assault and violence than cis women are! There is danger here, but it’s not coming from the trans women, and framing it as if it is, and as if that is something that should be compromised on is dangerous to trans people.
There is no compromise, when that compromise involves having our safety ignored, and our rights rolled back. That’s not compromise.
Yes when you (or someone) literally asked me for examples, I provided examples. You’ve taken my giving examples of things i have heard other people expressing as being my own personal suggestions. I can also give you an example of how some people believe the moon landing was faked, that doesnt mean i’m suggesting I personally believe them.
Because Its something i’ve heard other cis women say, and those cis wome do not hate trans people, they arent aware of the same statistics you are, not everyone is able to follow the same news sources and some people who only get infomation on social media are subject to waves of propaganda news articles. Its one of the resons i personally got off facebook when I started seeing crazy anti-trans stuff on a completely unrelated group about a cartoon i like, this shit is EVERYWHERE and to people who are un-informed it can be scary and concerning.
You may not have a desire to engage with those people and thats totally understandable, but there should be some people who are allies, who are able to engage in those types of conversations. We live in a world where Trump won AGAIN, so clearly things are heading a certain way if drastic action isnt taken, but I’m not sure you’re going to be able to bully people into accepting that “trans women are women”, I personally agree with that statement, but at least 1/3rd of people probably never will agree with it, and a good portion are either not invested enough to care or very set in their existing ways and ideas and will take some convincing about one thing or another.
Right now we are literally having everyone’s rights rolled back because thats how fascists like Trump act when you stand up to them, I’m not saying don’t stand up to them. It’s a pretty bad sign that enough people support them and what they are doing, not just trans rights everyone’s rights are getting trashed and there is a good third or so of the population that is just going to stand by and cheer it on. I’d like to find as many allies as I can at a time like this, and to me that means finding ways to see common ground with people i have other disagreements with, for me there’s no war but the class war, and trans people are a part of that too.
I very much understand that. However, this conversation is a classic example of the fact that even being told those statistics and having the context made clear, doesn’t actually change anything.
There are. Lots of them! It’s why I am defensive with you, because despite the existence of folk like that, you don’t see them, and instead categorise trans people as largely being “all or nothing”. You are part of the group you were just talking about. The group that isn’t exposed to the right content, and instead, only knows what they see in an actively transphobic media and social media environment.
And as I said earlier, you won’t shift your opinion, you won’t ease off and stop fighting me, to become one of those people that helps trans folk. Instead, you’ll fight me, for daring to take issue with your framing of the situation, whilst blaming me for it at the same time.
That’s our common ground right there. Yet instead of talking about that, you’re suggesting that actually, giving in and being ok with some of those rollbacks might be ok, as long as its trans people!
If you want allyship against facism, focus on the facism, rather than demanding that your allies capitulate to it
You keep putting words in my mouth, at what point did i suggest rolling back rights for anyone?
It seems like you are just looking to be offended, good luck with that, ill leave you to your strawmen.
When you said we should accept our removal from sports, and that we should be open to exclusion from the ability to use bathrooms in public.
As I said though, this conversation is an example of why you don’t see the behaviour you’re asking for. It’s because the responses always look like yours.
Just to correct the record here:
I am against the remove of trans people from sports, but i also realize that sports are not a “right” and you can’t walk back something you never had in the first place. Sports are only accessible to privileged people to begin with.
I think all public bathrooms should be gender neutral or single person only.
The right being lost isn’t the right to play sports. It’s the right to equality.
And it’s great that your for something that isn’t going to happen in our lifetimes. But in the mean time, trans people have to navigate the situation we do have.
Yeah exactly so nothing i mentioned was actually rolling anything back, trans people never had equality, women never had equality, minorities do not have equality. You will never have equality under a capitalist system unless you have the $$$ and lawyers to backup your demands for it,.
But please keep being loud about how everyone who disagrees with you is trying to take away your rights (the ones you never had to begin with) and making up strawmen to argue with so you don’t have to address anything in reality. I’m sure you’ll make progress any day now with that attitude.
Goddamn you’re a clown