I’m going to move away from lastpass because the user experience is pretty fucking shit. I was going to look at 1pass as I use it a lot at work and so know it. However I have heard a lot of praise for BitWarden and VaultWarden on here and so probably going to try them out first.
My questions are to those of you who self-host, firstly: why?
And how do you mitigate the risk of your internet going down at home and blocking your access while away?
BitWarden’s paid tier is only $10 a year which I’m happy to pay to support a decent service, but im curious about the benefits of the above. I already run syncthing on a pi so adding a password manager wouldn’t need any additional hardware.
You must log in or register to comment.
I use KeePassXC its free works on what I use. The encrypted list of passwords is synced with my phone twice a day with Syncthing. Chrome had a fit with the android app to I switched to Firefox after. I selfhost it because it’s free and I know enough to troubleshoot any problems.
I use a KeePassXC database on a syncthing share and haven’t had any issues. You get synchronization and offline access, and even if there are sync conflicts, the app can merge the two files.
One benefit to hosted password vaults over files is that they can use 2FA - you can’t exactly do TOTP with a static file.
(As an aside, I wish more “self hosted” apps were instead “local file and sync friendly” apps instead, exactly because of offline access)
KeepassXC handles TOTP.
Regarding benefits for the paid tier (which I use as a sort of donation):
- it’s literally on their page: https://bitwarden.com/help/password-manager-plans/#compare-personal-plans
- What I actually use: A bit of the encrypted upload, some 2FA generators for unimportant services (I prefer using another 2FA app with encrypted automated backups. Helps keeping things separate)
Regarding self-hosting:
I decided against it.- Too much important stuff in there (+400 accounts)
- Too much stuff in there I would need to back up and keep safe. Not in the mood.
- Not enough experience with hosting a database. If it would go belly-up I had no one except the internet to ask and figure it out myself. At best some selfhost forum/community.
I think you misread my post. I know what the benefits of their paid teir are, because literally read their page.
I was asking why people self host. As you don’t self host…I’m not sure why you’re responding, especially not with passive aggressive language like that.
Didnt feel passive aggresive to me.
And regarding the question why people self host:
More or less the usual reasons (e.g. learning, just4fun, experimenting)
And I gave you the reasons why I decided against it.Do with both informations what you need to do. Keeping it in mind or disregard my opinion/choices as not directly answering your question
Firefox has a built in password manager, it is stored on each machine you sync. But to anwer your question any cloud stored data is vulnerable, so be sure your password manager supports other verification measures such as Yubikey as another factor of authentication
If a FOSS project provides easy self hosting but also a paid hosting I usually go for that to support the project and gain something at the same time. Not only for password managers but any service.
Keepass hosted on my Nextcloud server. You can have the database synced to however many devices you want, and each one will always have a local copy of the latest version. You can use whatever sync solution you want though: syncthing, Dropbox, google drive etc. I suggest using diceware to generate a strong master passphrase for the database :)
Yeah. I use KeepassXC on my computers and KeepassDX on my phone. All synced with syncthing and it works great.
Bitwarden also syncs a local copy to every device it connects to.
This is the way. It’s also one of the simplest self-hosted setups you can have. Highly recommend it.
I switched from Lastpass to 1Pass and it was pretty miserable. I then swtiched to Bitwarden. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than LP and 1Pass.
The reason you’d want to self-host is so that nobody has access to your data but you. “The cloud” is just someone elses computer"
Bitwarden does external audits with reports and stores in zero knowledge storage.
Loose your master password and you are fucked. They can’t restore it even if you pay them a million €That was basically the same claim LP made. Even if true, if you have a bad master password, you can be compromised. While yes, that’s on you, your data is a high priority target in a centralized password store… if you host it yourself, someone would first have to know you had that data to even target you for that. Much less exposure hosting it yourself. The convenience factor and potentially less security than a company hosting passwords have, so it’s kind of a six of one, half dozen of the other.
Fair points.
Considering bitwarden is zero knowledge the data in itself is for now ‘safe’ enough to me.
Though I could be subject to IP/vulnerability scans on my home connection or accidentaly forwarding stuff that puts the security at risk and getting compromised (Seriously…The stuff I could connect and control via VNC I found on shodan was very creepy and frightening).
Nah mate. Plus maintaining the data I already have is enough for me. Bitwarden would be way too much. But maybe in the future once I figure Linux and docker more out :)
Im curious what makes it better than 1pass? Ive used a few of these, and my experience with 1pass was probably the best. Well, except for the price…
I don’t understand it tbh. Password managers and email are the main things I avoid self hosting. Email because it’s just too easy to fuck something up and never realize you’re not actually properly sending/receiving email. And password managers because if I lose access to it, I’m kinda royally fucked. And the password managers I use keeps a local copy of your database that gets periodically updated, so even without internet I do still have access.
Could one not theoretically self-host a PW manager that also keeps a local copy of the database for times with no internet?
Idk if that doesn’t exist yet or what, and there are plenty of other reasons against self-hosting a PW manager but that seems like a logical work-around for that particular problem. Keep your access when the internet is down, and keep your data out of third party control.
Absolutely, in fact I’d be willing to bet vaultwarden does just that. That’s a good point.
Bitwarden does exactly that. It will mostly work with no server connection.
I selfhost vault warden, and in all honesty, it’s just painless. I do reverse proxy it, but you could also just setup wireguard or Tailscale at home and keep it even more secure that way.
The reason I chose to selfhost is because I want to be in as much control as possible of my data. I chose Vault warden because it’s fully featured and super easy to deploy the server, ridiculously so.
Now,if anyone was to ask me if they should selfhost Bitwarden or just use their hosted service, I’d suggest to take the second option, for 2 reasons:
1.- it’s even easier and just works 2.- if you choose the paid tier it has some nice features and you help the project stay alive
I use KeepassXC
I self-Host Vaultwarden at home, this way I have a convenient password manager for myself and my SO, it’s easy to setup and maintain. East to access from the phone, Firefox, etc. Bitwarden app keeps a local cache so even when disconnected from the server I have access to my passwords and it will synchronize at the next connections. I otherwise have a Wireguard VPN setup in case I need to connect to my home server from outside my home.
Before I used KeePass+syncthing but it was to much configuration to convince my SO to use it. Bitwarden/Vaultwarden was more successful in that regard.
After trying them all, I’m back at having a local KeePass database that is synced to all my devices via iCloud and SyncThing. There are various apps to work with KeePass databases and e.g. Strongbox on macOS and iOS integrates deeply into Apple’s autofill API so that it feels and behaves natively instead of needing some browser extension. KeePass DX is available for all other platforms, and there are lots of libraries for various programming languages so that you can even script stuff yourself if you want.
And I have the encrypted database in multiple places should one go tits up.
Very interesting. How secure is this against having a compromised device? I‘m really paranoid that someone would somehow have a backdoor into my systems and snatch stuff I host on my own
Not the one who wrote the command: The Keepass DB encryption is afaik pretty damn good. So that wouldn’t be an attack vector I would worry about. Also and those are just my five cents and I might probably be ripped in pieces by some it sec people, I wouldn’t fear too much about a backdoor being put into your systems when self hosting. If someone actually does this it’s most probably gonna be some actor related to a government that targets you for whatever reason and at least then most of us wouldn’t stand a chance to keep all of their IT devices save, especially when they could stop you on the streets and get physical access to some devices. On the other hand hosted services with thousands of customers are also a lucrative target for cyber crime and which you as a self hosting individual are most probably not. This reduces the possible threats quite a bit, at least if you keep up some default safety stuff to not just let any wannabe hacker from wherever into your self hosted services that would be happy if they can get a 5 thousands dollars/ euros or whatever from you.
You’ll learn pretty quickly that a large chunk of self-hosting people are the types that are just terrified of having things be outside their control, which by extension means they are terrified of other people that aren’t them running infrastructure. 🫠
True but also free service and fun to play with.
The learning aspect is the big one for me. If you need a reliable service with no time spent learning or troubleshooting, you’re probably better using a paid service.
But also, there are significant potential savings and advantages for data storage at home.
And at 10€ per year I’ll gladly pay that. Now if it was 10€ per month and almost bi-yearly increasing, because why not, I’d quickly reconsider taking the risk and responsibility of self-hosting the door to my internet- and reallife existence.
I store everything in there. Banking, health, shopping, etc etc. Not worth it exposing it without knowing how much I expose.
The things I currently expose are relatively low-risk.
Because when whatever company gets a data breach I don’t want my data in the list.
With bitwarden If your server goes down then all your devices still have a local copy of your database you just can’t add new passwords until the server is back up.
Pretty much this. Combined with how easy it is to install VaultWarden (docker ftw), it was a no brainer for me.
Also, my little home server is a WAY less juicy target for someone looking to steal and sell a bunch of passwords.
Been running it for probably about 2 years now. No ISP outages but a couple self-inflicted ones. Didn’t even notice the outages in the BitWarden app/extension.
This was also the most compelling reason for me to consider it.
I do think that balanced against the time and effort and risk of me fucking up outweighs this benefit. But I can totally see why for some that balance goes the other way.
I think the main thing for not messing it up is just make sure you keep it updated. Probably set up auto updates and auto backups.
More than any other piece of self-hosted software: backups are important if you’re going to host a password manager.
I have Borg automatically backing up most of the data on my server, but around once every 3 months or so, I take a backup of Vaultwardens data and put it on an external drive.
As long as you can keep up with that, or a similar process; there’s little concern to me about screwing things up. I’m constantly making tweaks and changes to my server setup, but, should I royally fuck up and say, corrupt all my data somehow: I’ve got a separate backup of the absolutely critical stuff and can easily rebuild.
But, even with the server destroyed and all backups lost, as long as you still have a device that’s previously logged into your password manager; you can unlock it and export the passwords to manually recover.
1Password’s security model guards against this. Even if they are breached, your passwords cannot be decrypted.
You are more likely to screw up your own backups and hosting security than they are.
LastPass said the exact same thing. I won’t be a big target like they will though.
LastPass doesn’t have your password, so it can’t be stolen during a breach.
But 1Password goes a step further, also requiring a “secret key”, which also can’t be stolen.
https://support.1password.com/secret-key-security/
Even if an attacker manages to steal your encrypted data from 1Password and also guess your master password, they still can’t access your data without a secret key.
For that reason, your 1Password account is more likely to compromised through your own device, not their server. And if your own devices are thoroughly compromised, no password manager can save you— the attacker can potentially grab all you type and see all you see.
Ok, but this doesn’t explain why you would choose to self-host VaultWarden rather than using BitWarden.
I’ve used cloud based services for password managers for work and “self host” my personal stuff. I barely consider it self hosting since I use Keepass and on every machine it’s configured to keep a local cached copy of the database but primarily to pull from the database file on my in-home NAS.
Two issues I’ve had:
Logging into an account on a device currently not on my home network is brutal. I often resort to simply viewing the needed password and painstakingly type it in (and I run with loooooong passwords)
If I add or change a password on a desktop and don’t sync my phone before I leave, I get locked out of accounts. Two years rocking this setup it’s happened three times, twice I just said meh I don’t really need to do this now, a third time I went through account recovery and set a new password from my phone.
Minor complaint:
Sometimes Keepass2Android gets stuck trying to open the remote database and I have to let it sit and timeout (5 minutes!!!) which gets really annoying but happens very infrequently which is why I say just minor complaint
All in all, I find the inconvenience of doing the personal setup so low that to me even a $10 annual subscription is not worth it
Consider shortening your passwords. Random passwords longer than 20 characters is a complete waste of time.
To me 16 is long haha.
I usually end up running with 16 characters since a lot of services reject longer than 20 and as a programmer I just like it when things are a power of two. Back in the Dark Times of remembering passwords my longest was 13 characters so when I started using a password manager setting them that long felt wild to me.
I do have my bank accounts under a 64 character password purely because monkey brain like seeing big security rating in keepass. Entropy go brrrrrrrrrrrr
Haha, yeah 16 is actually pretty long.
I guess I’m just used to being forced 16 characters long passwords at long.
Appreciate your perspective thanks for sharing.
I run a similar setup, but with syncthing as the syncing system. Every time I connect the phone to the charger it just syncs the database and I can even sync it outside the home network. Works like a charm. Worst case you get a sync conflict which is easy to solve.
The way I get around the syncing issue is to set my syncthing to sync when my phone is charging so it’s very unlikely to not be in sync, or if I change a password on the PC I’ll plug my phone into a USB and it syncs straight away.
I also use KeepassDX on Android and never have those issues.
