Do you agree that the CCP was responsible for thousands of deaths during the Tiananmen Square massacre? Do you agree that China is committing genocide against the Uyghurs?
If you agree, think you might agree, or don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about, you shouldn’t be on lemmy.ml
Eh the massacring happened on side streets, local Peking residents were trying to keep the army from moving into the square not really knowing that other Peking residents had already briefed the army on who the protesters actually were, and what they wanted, and how they behaved. Once the army was on the square and set an ultimatum it was cleared with no or few casualties, the reports are a bit fuzzy.
That doesn’t excuse the CCP in one bit, of course, or rather it doesn’t excuse the hardline faction who couldn’t stomach that others in the party were actually talking to the protesters as that would set a precedent that you can just turn up on the square and get an audience with the party, or maybe more precisely could boost the influence of one party faction over the whole.
The whole situation really can’t be divorced from Hu Yaobang and his role in the party: The protests were essentially a wake for him and his ideas. Which the hardliners thoroughly buried afterwards and the situation in China hasn’t improved to the point where Chinese would even be comfortable to criticise that decision – you’d get invited for tea, if you can catch on to the euphemism.
If it had been up to the hardliners yes the army would’ve massacred the whole square, if that hadn’t been their intention they wouldn’t have mischaracterised the nature of the protest towards the army. Without ordinary Peking citizens stepping in, and getting butchered for it, that massacre would have happened.
And yes the Uygur situation is a genocide that’s without question or asterisk.
See there’s the stuff that happened, there’s the version that tankies want to believe (complete denial), which is actually different from the official CCP stance (“necessary and proportionate police action to ensure stability”, with the implication “enough questions, comrade, nothing more to see”), which is different from western public… myth, I have to say. Back when the stuff went down western journalists didn’t know what was happening, there were confusing reports, there were reports of violence, and then there was the tank man – taken the day after (IIRC, but definitely later and no he didn’t get run over). The collective imagination somehow constructed an image of the Chinese army rolling over students. Which is… metaphorically true, but not literally. And then the CCP is using that western imagination to spin their own tale of how the evil west is slandering them.
Truthfully, if anyone can give an independent first hand report about the treatment of Uyghurs in China (that is not coming from propaganda vehicles like the Victims of Communism Foundation), I would be most interested.
You mean something like the UN Human Rights Office report that concluded “China responsible for ‘serious human rights violations’ in Xinjiang province”?
Yes. Though serious human rights violations are not the same as genocide and concentrations camps, as both the above poster and Victims of Communism Foundation wants us to believe.
That means in no way that those violations are acceptable.
“allegations of patterns of torture, or ill-treatment, including forced medical treatment and adverse conditions of detention, are credible, as are allegations of individual incidents of sexual and gender-based violence.”
Individual incidents of sexual and gender-based violence are horrible, but not nearly the same as sexual violence employed on scale through genocidal concentration camps, which is claimed by US propaganda machines. Individual incidents of sexual violence unfortunately happen everywhere, and pretending otherwise is wilful ignorance of an endemic problem for the purpose of, what I have to assume is, an underlying agenda. Stop moving the goal post and stop using reductive argumentation to score cheap shots at China. If China really is as bad as claimed, which I am not categorically refuting, then make the proper case for it.
Any case you’ll say it’s not first hand and therefore invalid.
You also seem to have narrow attention span. Seems the bit about torture, forced medical treatments, detention… Somehow eluded you. You saw the word “individual” and held to that like a Chinese state doctor holds a healthy kidney.
But that happens everywhere, am I right?
Yet here you are, taking about some hypothetical “US propaganda machine”, without making s proper case for it.
This brand of deflection, “well, I’m not denying, but we can’t say for certain, and actually everywhere there are issues” isn’t new nor very effective. You might need to update your training data, give it a few more cycles. At least don’t throw it back to back in the conversion, jus much more noticeable that way.
Yes to both. I absolutely despise both country’s governments because of their actions. However mirroring the government’s actions to individuals living in a country does not seem fair. I fucking hate my country’s president, and would celebrate it if he died. Why should I get judged based on his actions?
No one’s judging you based on his actions, they’re judging you based on your actions. That being to have your account on an instance that supports those actions.
You missed the point. He’s saying if you hold those positions, then your account isn’t safe there. I just avoid the .ml servers in general because of their heavy handed and politically charged moderating. Admins and power mods ruined reddit, I’d recommend not committing the same mistakes here.
.ml servers started the segregationist bullshit with their moderating. I’d also be interested in what your stance was on most every server defederating with exploding heads and burggit back last year.
I don’t know anything about exploding heads and burggit but I assume they are right-leaning/alt-right. Like lemmygrad but the "opposite?) I am against defederation in general. I like to be exposed to different opinions and I am fully capable to use my brain to not become an extremist.
That said, I don’t agree with either the extremist left or right.
If your stance is to have no or minimal defederation then lemmy.ml is not the right choice, lemm.ee is: Compare blocked instances here with the same here. Besides lemmy.ml apparently not cleaning up their blocks (e.g. exploding-heads is defunct) they block e.g. lemmynsfw.com. Not really political that’s just one that I recognised.
Da fuq?
Do you agree that the CCP was responsible for thousands of deaths during the Tiananmen Square massacre? Do you agree that China is committing genocide against the Uyghurs?
If you agree, think you might agree, or don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about, you shouldn’t be on lemmy.ml
Eh the massacring happened on side streets, local Peking residents were trying to keep the army from moving into the square not really knowing that other Peking residents had already briefed the army on who the protesters actually were, and what they wanted, and how they behaved. Once the army was on the square and set an ultimatum it was cleared with no or few casualties, the reports are a bit fuzzy.
That doesn’t excuse the CCP in one bit, of course, or rather it doesn’t excuse the hardline faction who couldn’t stomach that others in the party were actually talking to the protesters as that would set a precedent that you can just turn up on the square and get an audience with the party, or maybe more precisely could boost the influence of one party faction over the whole.
The whole situation really can’t be divorced from Hu Yaobang and his role in the party: The protests were essentially a wake for him and his ideas. Which the hardliners thoroughly buried afterwards and the situation in China hasn’t improved to the point where Chinese would even be comfortable to criticise that decision – you’d get invited for tea, if you can catch on to the euphemism.
If it had been up to the hardliners yes the army would’ve massacred the whole square, if that hadn’t been their intention they wouldn’t have mischaracterised the nature of the protest towards the army. Without ordinary Peking citizens stepping in, and getting butchered for it, that massacre would have happened.
And yes the Uygur situation is a genocide that’s without question or asterisk.
The massacre is not and has never been limited to the square. It was the event.
Don’t say any of that on lemmy.ml haha
See there’s the stuff that happened, there’s the version that tankies want to believe (complete denial), which is actually different from the official CCP stance (“necessary and proportionate police action to ensure stability”, with the implication “enough questions, comrade, nothing more to see”), which is different from western public… myth, I have to say. Back when the stuff went down western journalists didn’t know what was happening, there were confusing reports, there were reports of violence, and then there was the tank man – taken the day after (IIRC, but definitely later and no he didn’t get run over). The collective imagination somehow constructed an image of the Chinese army rolling over students. Which is… metaphorically true, but not literally. And then the CCP is using that western imagination to spin their own tale of how the evil west is slandering them.
Truthfully, if anyone can give an independent first hand report about the treatment of Uyghurs in China (that is not coming from propaganda vehicles like the Victims of Communism Foundation), I would be most interested.
No, I am not saying this in rebuttal to anything.
You mean something like the UN Human Rights Office report that concluded “China responsible for ‘serious human rights violations’ in Xinjiang province”?
Yes. Though serious human rights violations are not the same as genocide and concentrations camps, as both the above poster and Victims of Communism Foundation wants us to believe.
That means in no way that those violations are acceptable.
And this is from what China let them see.
Individual incidents of sexual and gender-based violence are horrible, but not nearly the same as sexual violence employed on scale through genocidal concentration camps, which is claimed by US propaganda machines. Individual incidents of sexual violence unfortunately happen everywhere, and pretending otherwise is wilful ignorance of an endemic problem for the purpose of, what I have to assume is, an underlying agenda. Stop moving the goal post and stop using reductive argumentation to score cheap shots at China. If China really is as bad as claimed, which I am not categorically refuting, then make the proper case for it.
Any case you’ll say it’s not first hand and therefore invalid.
You also seem to have narrow attention span. Seems the bit about torture, forced medical treatments, detention… Somehow eluded you. You saw the word “individual” and held to that like a Chinese state doctor holds a healthy kidney.
But that happens everywhere, am I right?
Yet here you are, taking about some hypothetical “US propaganda machine”, without making s proper case for it.
This brand of deflection, “well, I’m not denying, but we can’t say for certain, and actually everywhere there are issues” isn’t new nor very effective. You might need to update your training data, give it a few more cycles. At least don’t throw it back to back in the conversion, jus much more noticeable that way.
And, likewise, the UN stating that serious human rights violations occurred is not the same as them all saying they aren’t committing genocide
No, but I am not the one making statements. I only asked for sources that supported those made by others.
So now you know it’s real.
If you say so, daddy 🤠
Yes to both. I absolutely despise both country’s governments because of their actions. However mirroring the government’s actions to individuals living in a country does not seem fair. I fucking hate my country’s president, and would celebrate it if he died. Why should I get judged based on his actions?
You’re not being judged. We are letting you know what your instance is really about. Stay if you want, but you don’t align with it.
No one’s judging you based on his actions, they’re judging you based on your actions. That being to have your account on an instance that supports those actions.
The fuck? Who are you to say who should be on lemmy.ml? Just because I don’t agree with some of the people that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be here.
Get the fuck out of here with that segregation bullshit. I don’t want an instance that defederate from everything I don’t agree with.
Either you do not know anything about your instance, or you disagree with my comments about China. Which one is it?
they’re projecting.
they want to destroy anyone that doesn’t share their opinions on their instance and assume that’s what happens here.
Getting banned on your instance for trying to have a good faith discussion because you guys are offended by it is kinda fucked.
Lolol
“they’re projecting”
Projects harder than anyone else
“See?!”
The amount of bans by dessalines shows otherwise though
You missed the point. He’s saying if you hold those positions, then your account isn’t safe there. I just avoid the .ml servers in general because of their heavy handed and politically charged moderating. Admins and power mods ruined reddit, I’d recommend not committing the same mistakes here.
.ml servers started the segregationist bullshit with their moderating. I’d also be interested in what your stance was on most every server defederating with exploding heads and burggit back last year.
I don’t know anything about exploding heads and burggit but I assume they are right-leaning/alt-right. Like lemmygrad but the "opposite?) I am against defederation in general. I like to be exposed to different opinions and I am fully capable to use my brain to not become an extremist.
That said, I don’t agree with either the extremist left or right.
If your stance is to have no or minimal defederation then lemmy.ml is not the right choice, lemm.ee is: Compare blocked instances here with the same here. Besides lemmy.ml apparently not cleaning up their blocks (e.g. exploding-heads is defunct) they block e.g. lemmynsfw.com. Not really political that’s just one that I recognised.
Also I couldn’t find a federation policy for lemmy.ml, while lemm.ee has clear rules.
I never knew that. Thanks for the information! I will make an account on lemm.ee
Then why the shit are you on an instance that is against all of that lol?
Exactly what I was thinking.
You seem to be basing your defense of your instance on the misguided belief that they don’t defederate from people. I’d look into that if I were you.
Surely you’ve realised your instance has a huge pro-russian, pro-china tankie presence?
Lemmy.ml admins me for being against Russia invading Ukraine and committing genocide lmao
"Fuck the white supremacist reddit anti-tankie admins", I’ll start my own reddit with blackjack and hookers at lemmy.marxist-leninist to host /r/communism - the creator of Lemmy and admin of lemmy.ml.
*Blyat-jack.
This is why I was secretly rooting for Aether to take off instead of Lemmy.
Yeah, people warned me before I joined and I dismissed it, after a year here I realize how bad it is.