Please take this discussion to this post: https://lemmy.ml/post/28376589
Main content
Selfhosting is always a dilemma in terms of security for a lot of reasons. Nevertheless, I have one simple goal: selfhost a Jellyfin instance in the most secure way possible. I don’t plan to access it anywhere but home.
TL;DR
I want the highest degree of security possible, but my hard limits are:
- No custom DNS
- Always-on VPN
- No self-signed certificates (unless there is no risk of MITM)
- No external server
Full explanation
I want to be able to access it from multiple devices, so it can’t be a local-only instance.
I have a Raspberry Pi 5 that I want to host it on. That means I will not be hosting it on an external server, and I will only be able to run something light like securecore rather than something heavy like Qubes OS. Eventually I would like to use GrapheneOS to host it, once Android’s virtual machine management app becomes more stable.
It’s still crazy to me that 2TB microSDXC cards are a real thing.
I would like to avoid subscription costs such as the cost of buying a domain or the cost of paying for a VPN, however I prioritize security over cost. It is truly annoying that Jellyfin clients seldom support self-signed certificates, meaning the only way to get proper E2EE is by buying a domain and using a certificate authority. I wouldn’t want to use a self-signed certificate anyways, due to the risk of MITM attacks. I am a penetration tester, so I have tested attacks by injecting malicious certificates before. It is possible to add self-signed certificates as trusted certificates for each system, but I haven’t been able to get that to work since it seems clients don’t trust them anyways.
Buying a domain also runs many privacy risks, since it’s difficult to buy domains without handing over personal information. I do not want to change my DNS, since that risks browser fingerprinting if it differs from the VPN provider. I always use a VPN (currently ProtonVPN) for my devices.
If I pay for ProtonVPN (or other providers) it is possible to allow LAN connections, which would help significantly, but the issue of self-signed certificates still lingers.
With that said, it seems my options are very limited.
Hi. I am a software engineer with a background in IT security. My girlfriend is a literal network security engineer.
I showed her this thread and she said: don’t bother, just use http on your local network.
Anyways, I am going to disengage from this thread now. Skepticism against things one doesn’t fully understand can be healthy, but this is an insane mix of paranoia and naïveté.
You are not a target; the things you are afraid of will never happen; and if they did, they would not have the consequences you think they would.
Your router will NOT magically expose your traffic to the internet (what would that even mean?? Like, if it spontaneously started port forwarding to your Jellyfin server (how? By just randomly guessing the port and IP???), someone would still need to actively request that traffic, AND know your login credentials, AND CARE).
Your ISP does not give a shit about you owning or streaming copyrighted material over your local network. It has no stake in that.
Graphene is not an ultimate arbiter of IT security, but the reason it “distrusts networks” is because you take your phone with you, constantly moving into actual untrusted networks (i.e. ones you do not own).
Hosting Jellyfin on Graphene will not make it more secure, whatsoever.
If every device is assumed compromised, and compromising devices with knowledge that you watch media is a threat in your model, then even putting an SD card with media in your phone and clicking play is dangerous. Which is stupid.
If you actually assume your router is malicious, then please assume that when you initially downloaded your VPN client, it was also compromised and your VPN is not trustworthy.
The way I see it, you have two options:
- educate yourself on network security to the point of being able to trust your network setup; or
- forget about hosting anything
Regarding the ‘taking your phone with and joining untrusted networks,’ you can set up WireGuard to auto join your vpn on any network you haven’t whitelisted, including your cellular network.
I’m interested in you and your girlfriend’s thoughts on my new post about this issue.
P.S. She’s a keeper. Marry her already!
Hi again. Sorry for being so rude yesterday. Your new post actually clears the situation up a lot.
We might have an idea for you, will comment on the new post.
Just run it on the LAN and don’t expose it to the Internet. That’s 99% of the way there. HTTPS only secures the connection, and I doubt you’re sending any sensitive info to or from Jellyfin (but you can still run it in docker and use caddy or something with Let’s Encrypt).
The bigger target is making sure jellyfin itself and the host it runs on are updated and protected. You could use a WAF too.
Just run it on the LAN and don’t expose it to the Internet.
This would require paying for a VPN to allow LAN connections, which is an option but not my preferred one.
HTTPS only secures the connection, and I doubt you’re sending any sensitive info to or from Jellyfin
This is a matter of threat model, and I would prefer not to expose my TV preferences unencrypted over the network.
but you can still run it in docker and use caddy or something
Does Caddy require a custom DNS in order to point the domain to a local IP address?
The bigger target is making sure jellyfin itself and the host it runs on are updated and protected.
This is easy with securecore, since it updates daily. The rest of the semantics for the actual hosting side aren’t too difficult.
You could do a vpn hosting by yourself.
Meaning your server is basically a vpn tunnel server and you can connect from the Internet to it. Once you are in the encrypted vpn connection you have access to the local network.
If you have dynamic ip you need dns though. But no one can connect just because they know the ip)/dns
You could do a vpn hosting by yourself.
I’m uneasy about this, because I don’t trust myself to do it securely. VPNs are a very complex piece of software, so I highly prefer to stick with widely used setups (i.e. “stock” VPN software such as ProtonVPN, Mullvad VPN, etc.)
Wireguard was written with the explicit goal of having sane, secure defaults. I totally feel you w.r.t. openvpn or ipsec, since it’s easy to do something wrong. Wireguard is much easier because it simply refuses to give you the choice to do things incorrectly.
w.r.t. the certificate thing, you could set up a reverse proxy and do HSTS to ensure nobody can load up a rogue CA on your devices. HSTS has the issue that SSH has (trust on first use or whatever it’s called), but you just need to make sure nobody is MITM you for that first connecting and then you’ll be good to go. This would let you use a self-signed certificate if you do desired.
Wireguard was written with the explicit goal of having sane, secure defaults.
Wireguard is much easier because it simply refuses to give you the choice to do things incorrectly.
Security my beloved
I totally feel you w.r.t. openvpn or ipsec, since it’s easy to do something wrong.
This is one reason I’ve avoided selfhosting for this long. I am not a network engineer, and I have no plans to be. That means if I am managing an entire server from my physical home location, that’s a recipe for disaster. There’s simply no way to ensure you’ve done things correctly, especially since a lot of the selfhosting community has an… aversion to good security practices (which is why I had to make this post to begin with).
w.r.t. the certificate thing, you could set up a reverse proxy and do HSTS to ensure nobody can load up a rogue CA on your devices.
Would that work while having ProtonVPN still enabled?
trust on first use
My favorite food
This would let you use a self-signed certificate if you do desired.
Jellyfin clients don’t accept self-signed certificates, as I mentioned. Is there a way around that (or does HSTS somehow solve it)? From what I’ve learned about HSTS up until know, it is simply there to require the use of proper certificates and HTTPS. Am I wrong about that?
A self-hosted VPN is the most secure free way to host your Jellyfin. I’ve had to learn the hard way over the years, but all the features and control you gain for hosting services yourself comes with all the same responsibilities and risk that the provider would be taking on for you.
The money you spend on their service is the alternative to the many hours it takes to learn how to properly host your own server.
You can definitely learn how to do it and it will be difficult and confusing at times, but that’s what the community is there for. I recommend joining a Matrix server or similar so you can get more real-time feedback for when you’re just getting started.
Totally understand not wanting to take the risk, though. Just something worth considering.
But if you don’t plan to access it anywhere but home (your words), then it doesn’t have outside access, and putting it on your LAN is done.
Edit: if you do want to access it from outside, running a wire guard vpn locally is pretty easy to do.
I still want security in transit, no matter where it is being broadcast from.
You don’t trust your home network?
You do‽ I know the person who runs it and they’re completely inept! /s
Yeah, but the user is also inept, so it evens out.
Honestly though, they could run a pair of docker containers, one with jellyfin one with wire guard and only have access to the jellyfin instance when logged into the micro sized vpn? (I think docker will let you play with networks that way, I’m experienced enough to be dangerous but not useful)
You don’t need a VPN for LAN connections. You’re already on the LAN. You’d only need it for access from the WAN.
If you’re using Let’s Encrypt, you should probably purchase a domain. I don’t think they support .internal domains. Or you could set up your own CA and run it however you want, even issuing certs to access by IP address if you wanted.
You don’t need a VPN for LAN connections.
ProtonVPN by default blocks LAN connections, and can only be changed using their paid tier.
For that aspect, I would recommend changing to a provider that doesn’t have such ridiculous restrictions.
I kind of get it from Proton’s POV. If they have a free tier that allows a limited number of devices they’ll want to make sure you don’t tunnel all you devices through that one.
The only other providers I would use are Mullvad VPN or IVPN, both of which are paid.
I agree it is ridiculous.
Wait you’re seriously using a free VPN?
Being concerned about security while using free VPN sounds like an oxymoron.
Run in at home and get Tailscale setup with a Headscale server, or just use Tailscale straight out of you want. That’s the simplest.
A better option would be getting an OpenWRT router and start building proper infrastructure for doing something like this. You’ll have many different options for decentralized and NAT traversing VPNs with this option. GL.Inet Flint is a great choice.
Run in at home and get Tailscale setup with a Headscale server, or just use Tailscale straight out of you want. That’s the simplest.
I have no idea how to do this. Do you have any resources? Does it cost a subscription fee?
A better option would be getting an OpenWRT router
This is what I have planned. OpenWrt Two my beloved
You’ll have many different options for decentralized and NAT traversing VPNs with this option. GL.Inet Flint is a great choice.
I also don’t know how to do this. Resources are much appreciated :)
Okay, so let me explain a bit:
Tailscale is a commercial client that is semi-FOSS. It’s built on Wireguard, which is FOSS, but the cloud hosted architecture does cost money after I think 5 clients.
Headscale is a FOSS implementation of Tailscale, and totally free to host, skipping the above.
Tailscale itself is super easy to use, and you just install it on a node, register it, and then it has access to any other device on that secured network. So if you install it on your Jellyfin machine at home behind your normal firewall, then install it on your phone, you’ll be able to connect to it without forwarding ports for messing around with much.
It should be that simple.
Does Headscale conflict with ProtonVPN/Mullvad VPN (i.e. can I use those alongside Headscale)? Android has a limited number of VPN slots, so that’s why I ask.
Nope. Wireguard runs outside the same protocols.
Just give Tailscale a try first because it’s essentially free for a few nodes. If you need more and don’t want to pay, then investigate Headscale.
So:
- ProtonVPN is installed on my Android phone
- Android has
Always-on VPNenabled - Android has
Block connections without VPNenabled - Host Jellyfin on my Raspberry Pi 5
- Install Headscale on my Raspberry Pi 5
- Install Headscale on my Android phone
- Install a Jellyfin client on my Android phone
- Configure everything
And that will work? It will be encrypted during transit? And only run on the LAN? Does ProtonVPN need to allow LAN connections (I assume it does)?
Sorry, it may be confusing, but Headscale is ONLY the free server component. The client is still Tailscale’s open client. That’s why I’m saying just sign up and try it first with Tailscale, and then if you need more connections without paying, create a Headscale server and re-register your clients to that to skip charges.
Alright, I’m slowly learning, bare with me here:
- ProtonVPN is always-on and blocks connections without VPN
- Jellyfin and Headscale are hosted on the Pi (or does Headscale need its own server?)
- Tailscale and a Jellyfin client are installed on the phone
Then:
- Will that will run fully on the LAN?
- Will it be encrypted during transit?
- Does ProtonVPN need to allow LAN connections?
I don’t plan to access it anywhere but home
Okay so what’s all this faffing about for? Just don’t open it up to the internet and access it with your servers local ip address on your home network
I wish it were that simple, but as I mentioned that would require paying for ProtonVPN to allow LAN connections (which isn’t the worst thing in the world, but I’d prefer to avoid subscriptions where possible) and clients don’t allow self-signed certificates.
What are you talking about. Please clarify if this is actually true:
I don’t plan to access it anywhere but home.
This would mean that you only want to access Jellyfin when you, and the device you are watching your show/movie on, are at home, where the Pi/server also is.
Is this correct?
If so, then questions about VPN, Certificates, DNS,… do not matter.
- host Jellyfin on the Pi, e.g. with IP 192.168.10.20 on your local network
- open the Jellyfin app on your TV/Phone/PC, connect to http://192.168.10.20:8096/
- done
Now you can access it at home, and only at home. I honestly fail to see where a VPN would even come into the equation here (again, if you wish to ONLY watch when you are at home, as you’ve said).
OPs problem is that proton blocks Lan connections when connected and require you to pay them if you want to unblock it
Smh. I get wanting to be connected to a VPN, but being locked out of your own local network is just stupid.
What the f
Then he should use Mullvad.
This would mean that you only want to access Jellyfin when you, and the device you are watching your show/movie on, are at home, where the Pi/server also is.
Is this correct?
Yes.
If so, then questions about VPN, Certificates, DNS,… do not matter.
They do, because if ProtonVPN blocks LAN connections then the only other option is exposing the server to the WAN
open the Jellyfin app on your TV/Phone/PC, connect to http://192.168.10.20:8096/
This does not encrypt during transit, and my network is not a trusted party.
I honestly fail to see where a VPN would even come into the equation here
I, like many others, use my devices for more than just accessing my LAN while I am on my home network.
This does not encrypt during transit, and my network is not a trusted party.
Then honestly, you have other problems than setting up Jellyfin.
For real though, if you think someone is (or might be) listening in on your local network, i.e. have physical access or compromised one of your machines, then the Jellyfin traffic is the least of your problems. Pick your battles. What’s the worst that could happen here - someone gets to know your favorite show?
They do, because if ProtonVPN blocks LAN connections then the only other option is exposing the server to the WAN
Ah, I see. On your PC you should just be able to set a static route over the physical interface for 192.168.0.0/24 (or whatever your local network is) which takes precedence over the VPN. For android… Oof, no idea. Probably need root.
For real though, if you think someone is (or might be) listening in on your local network, i.e. have physical access or compromised one of your machines, then the Jellyfin traffic is the least of your problems. Pick your battles. What’s the worst that could happen here - someone gets to know your favorite show?
A bad router + bad ISP combo means I get ratted out for copyrighted material (that I don’t have… I only host creative commons videos on my Jellyfin server, of course…)
This isn’t really true. Even IF your router would fail catastrophically in the right way to expose your Server to the internet, or of it actually “ratted your traffic out” to the ISP and the ISP cared (which it does not), it’s not illegal to hist Jellyfin, or put media on it which you own (which is not discernible from just… Media being streamed).
Also your ISP has no part in your local network traffic.
Just out of curiosity, why is your network not a trusted party?
You could start with an additional firewall and maybe setting up traffic restrictions on it to mitigate what devices can communicate with each other, in addition to setting up a local VPN.
Yes its possible to spoof mac addresses and such but it really sounds like your concerns could be mitigated by having a more secure network setup.
If your network isn’t a trusted party then you need to start there. Why isn’t it a trusted party and what do you need to do to secure the traffic to/through it.
Just out of curiosity, why is your network not a trusted party?
Part of my threat model is essentially “anything that can connect to the internet poses a security risk”. Since networks are the literal gateway to the internet, it is reasonable not to trust them. Routers don’t run as secure operating systems as Qubes OS, secureblue, or GrapheneOS. If a malicious party found a way to connect to the network, all unencrypted activities can be intercepted. If the router itself has malicious code, any unencrypted traffic can be sent to a third party. Those are just the basics, but trying to put band-aid solutions on a fundamentally broken system is a losing battle.
GrapheneOS distrusts networks as much as possible, so I do too. Even if I own the network, I am not a network engineer, so the chances of fault are high. In the simplest case, the network is a gateway to all activity that happens on the LAN, and it only takes one zero day to make that happen. The best mitigation is proper encryption and no self-signed certificates (where possible).
Idk if proton allows you to download config files on a free account but if they do then you could use those to manually split tunnel your local internet
Edit: if they don’t then the “most secure” (and cheapest) option is to pay for a VPN that allows Lan connections
Look into Tailscale. Its free
If you are willing to swap to mullvad then you can also install tailscale. You can then choose to connect to your jellyfin server (over LAN) or (over tailscale-wireguard tunnel over LAN) while the rest of the traffic flows through mullvad.
Why not just skip that and just use a wire guard tunnel?
a wireguard tunnel over a forced NordVPN tunnel will mean that all his traffic will flow all the way to the NordVPN node and all the way back for a LAN connection.
a properly configured wireguard tunnel is harder to configure than a tailscale network with a mullvad exit node. (I think)
a wireguard tunnel can only connect one device to the Jellyfin Server (or router if it supports it)
WG Ez worked fine for me? Basically just VPNs me right into my LAN.
OH I’m an idiot, I forgot I connect to my domain for the wire guard connection lmao
Though I did mean just tunnel into the Lan then the vpn is applied on outbound connections on the Lan using something like Gluetun or w/e
Your post is very confusing. You want to use it only locally (on your home), but it can’t be a local-only instance.
You want to e2ee everything, but fail to mention why. There is no reason to do that on your own network.
I do not know why you want to use a VPN and what you want to do with it. Where do you want to connect to?
What is the attack vector you’re worried about? Are there malicious entities on your network?
You want to use it only locally (on your home), but it can’t be a local-only instance.
By “local-only” I meant on-device
You want to e2ee everything, but fail to mention why.
Privacy and security.
There is no reason to do that on your own network.
Networks are not a trusted party in any capacity.
I do not know why you want to use a VPN and what you want to do with it. Where do you want to connect to?
A VPN such as ProtonVPN or Mullvad VPN are used to displace trust from your ISP into your VPN provider and obscure your IP address while web browsing (among other benefits that I don’t utilize).
What is the attack vector you’re worried about? Are there malicious entities on your network?
These are good questions but not ones I can answer briefly.
My short answer: you’re overthinking it way too hard and I think sticking that microSD-Card into the device you want to watch on is your best bet.
You’re chasing ghosts.
I applaud your accomplishment as a penetration tester. I am disappointed at your lack of understanding regarding non-public networking.
Move your VPN to your router. Don’t bother with HTTPS on anything not exposed to the Internet.
If that does not satisfy your concerns, you may want to give up using electronic devices.
No reason not to have both. Things like vaultwarden do warrant an extra layer so setup wildcard domain for internal services x.local.example.com and then normal certs for external stuff like y.example.com.
To get internal stuff you then need your vpn as well to access it. You can now easily choose what risk you want on a per app basis.
Technotim has a good video on this
I can’t answer your question as I rely on Plex rather than fooling around with my own security, but I’d suggest reconsidering the Pi and a microSD to host Jellyfin. Neither one of these are a good fit unless you plan on sticking to very specific audio and video codecs to avoid all transcoding and your upload speeds are capable of serving the full bitrate of your files. Beyond that, SD cards are terrible for this kind of task and you’d be much better served with an SSD as your boot/data drive for robustness. I can’t even count the number of failed SD cards I’ve had over the years.
but I’d suggest reconsidering the Pi
It’s what I have on hand at the moment. I don’t have proper server hardware yet.
and a microSD to host Jellyfin.
Beyond that, SD cards are terrible for this kind of task and you’d be much better served with an SSD as your boot/data drive for robustness. I can’t even count the number of failed SD cards I’ve had over the years.
I will keep this in mind, thank you!
Neither one of these are a good fit unless you plan on sticking to very specific audio and video codecs to avoid all transcoding and your upload speeds are capable of serving the full bitrate of your files.
I haven’t tried playing videos from my Raspberry Pi, but I’ve been able to run extremely modern video codecs on some pretty old hardware without any issues. Since I’ve never had issues with video codecs, I’m not experienced in what hardware can and can’t handle it.
A micro sized PC with an i5 and 8gb or ram can cost under 100€, and it’s way more powerful compared to a pi. Power efficient too. That’s what I used for a long time for my jellyfin server.
Can I run it via PoE?
I don’t think so, but don’t quote me on that. My machines come with a 65w charger.
It cannot.
While used equipment is more powerful then a Pi, it doesn’t always fit everyone’s use case and I hate it when people have a “one size fits all” solution.
I agree with you, but this was specifically about jellyfin.
You can also add a second network interface to the computer that needs to access the jellyfin server over LAN.
Fwiw jellyfin apps don’t even allow you to use a self signed cert.
I know. It’s very unfortunate, but I understand why.
If you’re running externally, use a cloudflare tunnel.
No ports exposed = no attack surface. This is 99% of security.
HTTPS is provided by CF although only secures comms between your devices to CF, not CF to your Pi, meaning CF can see clear text technically.
If that’s not good enough then use a VPN server like PiVPN and put it on your pi and OpenVPN on your devices. *This has nothing to do with paid VPN Client subscriptions like Tunnelbear or Proton or whatever. *
You will be running a VPN server on your pi to which you will connect from your devices on which you want to watch JF by downloading a device profile to your devices and opening it in the OpenVPN app.
You do not need to pay for anything at all anywhere ever (other than something for DDNS and a domain name), use a strong password and make sure your JF is updated if there’s any CVE. Expose nothing else to the internet.
You don’t even need HTTPS at that point or any certs, a VPN will encrypt your traffic anyway. The only cleartext you’ll have is between your VPN and your JF, and if both are on the pi then the only MITM vector is literally inside your Pi which is unlikely to have any issues.
I’m not taking this to lemmyml
So you want a self hosted jellyfin instance that you only plan to access at home, as secure and simply as possible?
Buy an HDMI splitter.
You’re overthinking. Just host it on any server with a domain name and use let’s encrypt certs if you want to access it from anywhere. TLS offers good encryption, I don’t get how you need a VPN on top of that.
For local access only, I’d just host it on a machine over the lan, self-signed certs for TLS, hell I would even settle with http in this case. As for your VPN app preventing you to access a local resource on your lan, if true, you should get rid of that nonsense.
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