Edit: I also just got banned for apparently being a troll. Me. Not the person they believe to be a dragon though.
“Gatekeeping” is an especially funny thing to accuse people of while you are gatekeeping.
I suppose I should thank everyone in this comment section. I was initially feeling a little like I might have overreacted to an admin making a decision that no one in their right minds would actually defend when I sadposted on 196 about leaving, but seeing the wellspring of support for dragonfuckergender, I now feel comfortable in that leaving Blahaj is, indeed, the correct choice.
A .world user is leaving an instance they’re not a member of and feels the need to tell us about their sacrifice! Such bravery!
You absolutely did over react.
Not at all. Like I said, considering the reactions of Blahaj users in this thread, Blahaj quite clearly is not any place I want to remain active in.
Ah yes, they’re all crazy, where have we heard that line before? God forbid we treat people with the slightest bit of dignity.
Ah yes, they’re all crazy, where have we heard that line before? God forbid we treat people with the slightest bit of dignity.
Sorry, I’ve already committed thoughtcrime by questioning whether dragons are real. This is the state of Blahaj, it would seem.
You slated the thinking of an entire community centered around LGBTQ stuff, not the reality of Puff the Magic Dragon.
I invite you to check which instances “all those Blåhaj users” are actually from.
I invite you to check which instances “all those Blåhaj users” are actually from.
Copygirl - Blahaj
Erin - Blahaj
Catoblepas - Blahaj
Nimble - Blahaj
WeirdyTrip - Blahaj
Erotador - Blahaj
Any other stupid points you want disproven, or are we done here?
Here’s some non-Blåhaj users I’ve come across in this thread that are echoing a similar sentiment to me:
- Ma…@lemmy.world
- St…@lemmy.world
- sp…@lemmy.cafe
- Mo…@pawb.social
- Re…@lemmy.world
- yu…@pawb.social
- Al…@leminal.space
- [email protected]
- la…@lemmy.world
- [email protected]
You’ve got plenty of non-Blåhaj opinions in this thread questioning a Blåhaj admin’s decision.
Not to mention Dragon Rider isn’t even from our instance. Take it up with lemmy.nz if you want drag’s account banned.
Take it up with lemmy.nz if you want drag’s account banned.
I’ve stated multiple times that drag isn’t the problem for me. I don’t even remember the last interaction I had with drag. The admin reaction is the problem.
So drag isn’t the problem, even though drag’s a “troll” whose identity does not deserve respect (as you’ve repeatedly made clear in this thread), and you’re pissed at the admin whose instance’s rules are to respect identities and pronouns even regardless of that (and then enforcing those rules), instead of the admin of the instance that’s hosting the supposed “troll” and enabling drag’s behavior across many instances…?
Tell me how that’s supposed to make sense. Or, actually, don’t. I’ve seen plenty of your kind show their true colors over the course of trying to get through to you. You’re just unable to deal with the fact that you got rightfully banned after breaking the rules, even after being told what the issue is multiple times. Grow up. Learn from your mistakes.
Just a heads up: PJ there’s opinion is almost always whatever stirs up the most shit while getting them approval. I’ve literally seen them contradict their self within a few minutes in different conversations with separate people. If you look up “bad faith” on Wikipedia, a screenshot of some of their conversations here is listed.
I’m joking for the last sentence, but don’t drive yourself crazy. They are the poster child for .world’s problematic shit stirring, weird crusading behavior. Conversing with them is a waste of your time.
PJ is worse than Drag ever was.
Don’t feel bad, PJ doesn’t have any room for anything other than worshipping Rome via memes in their brains.
Bye, bigot. You’re not welcome anyway. You don’t get to question someone’s identity. Period. No matter what else they might have done, you do not get to question their identity.
I don’t see how it’s bigoted to be concerned with trolls whose behaviour actively harms the LGBTQ+ movement. There are tons of comments of that user that show they’re just trolling and engaging in disingenuous behaviour.
The right to identify as X or Y or whatever is not being questioned, the sincerity of this user specifically is being questioned. And that’s done because there’s a history of people claiming to identify as X/Y when they have no intention of doing so, and just doing it to drive people away from LGBTQ+ acceptance.
Gatekeeping support is not the answer here.
Now that everyone has had a chance to argue all day about this, I’m gonna lock this post so you can go touch grass.
I agree that Drag is a massive troll and that user has been banned from many instances over the past few months, including this one.
Maybe try leaving it up to the folks at blajah to decide what they want to be called and maybe just play along with it, even if you find it weird. “Normal” is so fucking boring anyway. If you really can’t cope with occasionally coming across an unusual pronoun and being asked to simply accept it without having a meltdown, you probably don’t belong on blajah anyway. Just move on.
The “gatekeeping” bans seem like a BPR to me given the context in which it was posted. Having said that, I don’t entirely understand the rationale for blajah’s rule, since the effect seems to be that you either need to be 100% behind fantasy neo-pronouns and identities (including drag? dragonfucker??) or cop a ban, but if that’s how they want things then that’s up to them. Not every space is for everyone, and diversity of communities and instances is mostly a good thing.
As far as our instance (dbzer0) goes, malicious/intentional misgendering of users is not permitted, similar to blajah. However, like others in this thread have argued, I agree that someone who literally identifies as a dragon fucker does not deserve to be taken seriously about anything, and it’s entirely reasonable to simply assume the choice of pronouns is just another form of trolling. The context and drag’s extensive mod history (along with previous alts) are important factors here too.
It’s also concerning to me that people are being attacked and reported for being “bigots” or “anti-trans” in the comments just because they have hesitations over what are effectively contentious edge cases involving neo-pronouns and an infamous troll. I know for a fact that many of the commenters in this thread are very supportive of trans people, trans rights and respecting a person’s chosen gender pronouns. They just have a problem with this particular dragon-fucker, not because Drag is trans, but because Drag is a narcissistic troll and a community wrecker who thrives on all the drama.
I’m leaving the comments intact for the record, but will add a CW below:
CW: possible misgendering in comments below, at least if you agree dragon fucker is a gender
Just to add to this. We don’t have problems with people identifying with fantasy races. Go be weird and whatnot. But there’s a line between what you identify as and with rubbing your kink in everyone’s faces constantly. So just to be clear out stance is not pro-disputing anyone’s identity and not respecting third-party person neopronouns. It about disputing whether your gender is being challenged because someone said “you”.
YDI.
The post clearly said “respect people’s pronouns, this rule will be enforced” and everyone getting mod action clearly states in response that they have read and understood the rules, but fully intend to break them.
There are absolutely ways to say “hey Ada, I think your judgement of this particular user is wrong and I am concerned about the damage drag does by engaging in trollish behavior” without also saying “but I plan to misgender people anyway.” The ones getting banned here fail on both counts.
PugJesus is a transphobe, pass it on.
Blåhaj Lemmy and its communities have certain rules regarding respecting of one’s identity and their chosen pronouns. This extends to identities and pronouns you might not agree with. Those are the rules of that space. You broke the rules. The consequences followed. This is just basic stuff.
On the other hand, if you believe certain people to be trolling with their neopronouns, then engaging with the matter in any way, is kind of “falling” for it. So, just … don’t engage? This is the internet. People get to be (more or less seriously) humanoid animals, fantasy creatures and races, and if you can’t get along with that, you can expect to get thrown out of a space that explicitly welcome anyone regardless of their identity or pronouns.
The users are taking issue with the admins falling for the troll and allowing the troll to make the space hostile. Their engagement is with the admin/mod response, not with the user.
If you genuinely believe dragons are real and they are able to type and have some understanding of the English language, go gather the data, get it peer reviewed and objectively verified, and go collect your Nobel Prize. Otherwise, if you occupy a space in which people must act as if dragons or Santa or Groot are real, that is an improv roleplay in which failure to say “Yes, and” is a bannable offense. Reality persists. Eppur si muove.
fantasy creatures
By using that adjective, you are implying there are creatures which do not exist. You’re defending the admin response by partaking in the same act which got the users banned.
Why are you hung up on the “dragons aren’t real” thing? That was never a requirement. Some people will argue that being trans isn’t real, being plural isn’t real, being genderfluid isn’t real, being bigender or another gender entirely isn’t real. (Not that you are claiming this.) As such, the admins there simply decided that there won’t be a line drawn. Let people do what they want. Heck, you could consider it “roleplaying” if you’re more comfortable with that, or alternatively, simply don’t engage. It’s disrespectful and not to mention disruptive to make it an issue.
Why are you hung up on the “dragons aren’t real” thing? That was never a requirement.
It was never a requirement that serious expressions of identity be real?
Yes. Them’s the rules on Blåhaj Lemmy.
What part of the removed comments do you think was considered gatekeeping by the admins, if not the statements that dragons aren’t real?
there won’t be a line drawn
Then any interaction in that superposition of reality and fiction is pointless. Acknowledgment of reality will be arbitrarily censored, such as above. It ceases to be roleplay and becomes a localized Ministry of Truth with the admins kowtowing to the trolls.
Let people do what they want.
People wanted to state the obvious about objective reality. Admin did not let them do that. People wanted to distinguish between reality and fiction. Admin did not let them do that.
It’s disrespectful
Disrespectful to whom? Trolls? Reality?
By questioning the person’s neopronouns, you’re gatekeeping which identities or pronouns are acceptable. Nobody cares whether dragons are real or not. Many letters of the alphabet mafia have been questioned on whether they are real or not, and even continue to be, so over here, we’re simply not doing that.
As for why you’re being disrespectful: You broke the rules of the space and now you’re making a big stink about it. Considering you’re admitting yourself you think this person is a troll, I think it’s time to admit your loss. You “fell” for them, got “tricked” into breaking a rule, and got banned as a result.
People get to be (more or less seriously) humanoid animals, fantasy creatures and races, and if you can’t get along with that, you can expect to get thrown out of a space that explicitly welcome anyone regardless of their identity or pronouns.
If I were a transgender person, I would not go within ten miles of a community that was applying the same rules to fantasy creature role playing as it was to my gender pronouns. The normie world doesn’t need to have any assistance in seeing the whole thing as made up, equivalent to wanting to be called a dolphin or a mermaid, and confusing those two very, very different concepts, or treating them as deserving of precisely the same treatment and rules, sounds very wrong to me.
FWIW I am trans and I 100% agree with you. Been thinking about making an account on another instance, just not sure which yet.
100%. It is wrong to elevate roleplay (which, let’s be clear, is exactly what this is) to the same level of importance as someone’s actual gender identity.
It’s a false equivalence and does a huge disservice to trans people who are fighting for their right to even exist.
Don’t speak for trans people. Regardless of whether drag thinks drag’s an actual dragon or if it’s roleplay or just a fun neopronoun, respect people’s identities. I don’t have to get it. If someone says “I’d like to be referred to as fae,” then I’m calling fae exactly what fae wants. I have a friend that uses “love/love” as neopronouns. I don’t get it, and yes it can be confusing, but that isn’t roleplay or hurting anyone’s right to exist. This is exactly the type of infighting that conservatives try to start, and you’re either falling for it or white knighting for people that don’t need it.
Gender is made up and entirely a social construct, and some people choose to make their own rules because the rules don’t actually exist. For some reason that really pisses people off that otherwise think they’re being allies.
If I were a transgender person
Thanks for “cisplaining” what a trans person would feel.
As a trans person, I would rather have a space where everyone’s identities aren’t questioned, than some kind of (potentially hidden) requirement to be in place that your identity has to be “real” in some way. If “normies” have trouble respecting trans people just because we also happen to respect other identities in our spaces, then shrug. If fellow trans people are uncomfortable with that, they don’t have to be part of this space, either.
In the end, you’re once again making this a much bigger deal than it has to be. Someone broke the explicitly written out rules and got bonked for it. And if you think this person is a troll, they sure are a good one with how much they’re being fed with all these posts.
Makes me wonder if the “I got banned” posts are just a continuation of the trolling to make as much drama as possible.
Move on. There’s trans people dying out there. This isn’t worth fighting over.
I care about issues of censorship and trolling, and the social contract on the network, that’s the only reason I am in this discussion. I think the whole “call me drag” thing is not worth that much attention, yes, but banning a bunch of people for saying dragons aren’t real sort of drew my attention to it.
I don’t know. It is your instance. You can do what you like with it, but keep in mind that not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend.
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule. That’s just the moderators / admins doing their job. And there’s a subtext to saying “dragons aren’t real”, which is “I don’t think I need to respect this person’s identity or pronouns”. That’s why it’s gatekeeping. You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule.
…
Alright I suppose it technically is censorship. I’m not a native English speaking person. You certainly shouldn’t be surprised about a community’s rules being enforced, though. I don’t think it would be sensible to complain about “censorship” if (as an example) one is spouting bigoted nonsense at family dinner and is getting thrown out the house as a result.
I would say this is more like being told “No prejudice” at Thanksgiving Dinner, and then being thrown out for saying that mashed potatoes were a mistake of god.
It is technically prejudiced (against mashed potatoes), but it is not the assumption most people would have upon being told “No prejudice”. Likewise, being told “Don’t discriminate against anyone’s gender identity” does not, for many, call to mind “Don’t say people can’t be dragons or that dragons aren’t real, they can be dragons if they want”.
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule.
Sure it is.
By my reading of the db0 terms of service, you’ve broken them here, because you are advocating for systems of authoritarian control and against the open discussion of ideas. Would you support banning your user from db0 so we can’t have this conversation? Is that censorship?
I don’t think you should get banned, of course. Because you’re clearly talking in good faith, and I like being able to talk with people, even when I disagree with them. I just would have a wish that the network as a whole generally works like that.
You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid
But the blahaj admins do! If I showed up and said my pronouns were “thatsaspicymeatball,” they would decide that wasn’t valid. They would not ban people for not using that as my pronouns, or for discussing the issue. They’ve just decided to make their judgement call in one particular place instead of another. That’s fine, of course, but then mechanically enforcing that everyone has to act in exact accordance with where they drew the line, even though there’s room for reasonable disagreement, is what will get people talking about you on PTB.
The reality of human life is that people look at things differently sometimes. I get wanting to protect your space against ignorance or people who will make someone feel unwelcome. But this is taking it to an extreme, forcing everyone to look at things in exactly the same chosen way, which is tearing down the thing you’re trying to accomplish, I think.
Does db0 have a ToS? I can see an “Anarchist Code of Conduct”, which seems to only support my points. In addition, db0 Lemmy has its own rules that could be seen as censorship just the same. Pointing out either instance’s rules existing presumably doesn’t imply that I’m advocating for authoritarian control or against discussion of ideas.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun. drag/drag, other than being exotic, works fine in place of a pronoun. (Though one could argue it is so unique it’s more akin to a nickname, but that’s another discussion to be had.) If you instead said your pronouns were that/that, and being serious about it, it would likely be accepted. Sure, you could argue it’s a line being drawn elsewhere, but it’s not on the matter of identity.
I know numerous people that use fae/faer pronouns, some friends. Fairies aren’t real, either. Does that mean people should be allowed to make those same arguments, be allowed to openly be disrespectful and arguing against the use of those pronouns, in a space that explicitly asks you to respect them? No, of course not. Admittedly, I don’t know anyone who isn’t also okay with certain non-neopronouns being used for them as well, but if they weren’t, I personally wouldn’t think much about it and just use them.
In the code of conduct is:
Voluntary interaction, especially when it includes:
- Inclusive language and behavior,
- Welcoming attitude and approach,
- Rational debate and discussion,
- Genuine exchanges of ideas,
What is Unacceptable
- Authoritarianism, or the spread of behavior that is designed to overturn the standards described so far
You could say that’s misleadingly trimmed. I was mainly just trying to make a point: Just because something is according to the written rules doesn’t make it right. Also, you’re currently coming into a space and violating its community standards, and no one is banning you, nor should they, I think. That is one way you can wind up talking with people even if at the outset they may not agree with you on everything.
If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun.
You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
See how that works?
My point was that they’re exercising judgement already, as you would to my requested pronouns, because of course they are. Everyone who’s doing moderation has to exercise judgement.
If I were a transgender person,
I’m trans and while I appreciate your attempt to empathize, I would like to ask you to never question a trans person’s pronouns again. When cis people start drawing lines about what’s “acceptably trans”, I get extremely uncomfortable. I don’t care how weird or crazy it seems, it’s not your place to do so.
I have had some very bad experiences with cis people trying to tell me that I’m not trans enough for them; that is why I get pissed off when it comes to cis people sticking their noses where it doesn’t belong. Hell, America is going turbo-mode on anti-trans rhetoric because a bunch of dumbass cis people think they know better than trans people.
I don’t care how strange drag’s pronouns are; it isn’t your place to decide whether or not drag is valid (drag is literally just asking you to refer to drag by a shortened version of drag’s name instead of he/she/they/xe/whatever, it’s not that hard).
Regardless of what the “normie world” thinks, gender is a social construct and people can do whatever they want. That doesn’t make them a troll and doesn’t invalidate them. We can’t just throw people out for being “too different” for fear of what the “normies” think. We all were too different not that long ago. We live for who we are, not for the approval of anyone else.
In this thread:
Blahaj Community: If you’re not trans, you don’t get a say in how trans spaces are run.
You: If I were a transgender person, here’s how I think I’d feel!
But mate, you’re not trans! How great, your opinion literally doesn’t matter a half fucking iota. It’s not needed or even wanted. Cishets run the world, so fuck right off out of trans spaces with your “but if I were trans” opinions. You’re not, no one cares.
I’m gonna be honest, y’all kinda fucking dumb lmao.
Let’s say drag is a troll. If so, then drag’s wanting you to do exactly what you’re doing now. You have taken the bait, hook, line and sinker. Congrats! You’re helping drag cause problems! To avoid taking the bait, you gotta use drag’s pronouns. Do that, and there’ll be no drama for drag to stir up.
If drag isn’t a troll, then you’re just being a dick and intentionally causing drama when you could just use drag’s pronouns. By doing so, you’d make drag feel happy and accepted; which would be very progressive of you.
Soooooo… By posting this, at best you’re just feeding a troll and making other trans people question whether or not their pronouns will be respected (no, really, when cis people start drawing lines for trans people, I get extremely uncomfortable; it’s not your place to do so, fuck right off), at worst you’re being a piece of shit.
Edit: the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.
You disgust me.
“The only way to beat trolls is to comply with their every demand and especially stay silent when they get the administrators to enforce their trolling” is an interesting take, and one about as useful to a community as “Just ignore the bullies and they’ll go away” is to a child.
A) the trolling part is getting people like you to lose their shit and question a person’s “transness”.
B) who died and made you the eternal arbiter of validity? Fuck off. I’ve had enough cis people question me and others; and now you want to tell us how to run our own spaces? Go fuck yourself.
The discussion is about people being banned from blahaj, not about whether we want to use these particular pronouns.
I’m sure the dragon user is tickled pink about all the drama, yes, but talking about policy when people are getting banned seems like a good thing to do even that notwithstanding.
Except the discussion hinges around people trying to claim that drag’s pronouns aren’t valid. That isn’t their place to decide. That is why they got banned.
No, the discussion doesn’t. You, the admin, and several others have misinterpreted the argument. The user has been banned across communities for trolling, misgendering, encouraging suicide, bad faith accusations, moderator harassment, and advocating violence. The user has posted comments that are racist and advocating for bestiality. The user has cyberstalked and harassed a Lemmy.world mod to misgender the mod’s daughter.
The user has declared themself to not be a human. You know that to be impossible.
This isn’t about the pronouns. We are on your side. The troll is attempting to discredit you and your communities.
We only insist on using the correct pronouns. What’s the purpose of arguing the validity of a supposed troll’s identity when there’s plenty of actions to criticize? How often do we need to tell you that the correct response to a trolls is NOT to start misgendering them or similar, before you get it?
We only insist on using the correct pronouns.
And the idea of ‘dragonfucker’ as a gender identity, don’t forget, which is what most of the people removed were removed for.
People got banned for responding to a post by the admin herself titled “Neopronouns are not trolling”. They literally started arguing with an admin right then and there about whether some user’s identity / pronouns are valid. I don’t know what other outcome you expect.
Why is it powertriping if you clearly broke the stated rules.
That’s like agreeing to a contract without any comolains and then complaining the contract is unfair if you break it.
Blahaj was never intended to be a free speech zone, it was intended to be the one place on the internet trans people feel safe, so they really don’t care what you think, it isn’t made for you.
As stated elsewhere here, most people would not interpret “Don’t question people’s gender identity” as “Don’t say dragons aren’t real or that people can’t be dragons”.
I disagree. It is a community for gender diverse folk and the rules are there to protect them. This is not about the dragon. It is about respecting someone’s identity. “Dragons aren’t real” in the context of someone identifying as a dragon is no different than a TERF telling a trans woman that trans women don’t exist. It it inherently questioning her identity, transphobic, and attacking her.
Can you see how that would be problematic? I think anyone surpise pikachu’ed by this should consider learning how to be a better ally instead of thinking they can say hurtful stuff.
I disagree.
As I said, ‘most people would not interpret’, and there is certainly a large number of people who quite clearly and vocally did not interpret the rule in the way that it has been clarified.
It it inherently questioning her identity,
Yes, in this case, because dragons are literally not real.
Questioning an identity that is at odds with reality is not a sin.
As i said, it’s not about drag. Regardless if you think drag is trolling, there are people who identity as fae/faerie. Are you going to tell them they don’t exist too?
As i said, it’s not about drag. Regardless if you think drag is trolling, there are people who identity as fae/faerie. Are you going to tell them they don’t exist too?
If they mean ‘faerie’ as in ‘literally one of the fae folk’? Yes, this is not much of a surprise to anyone past the age of kindergarten, but the fae folk aren’t real either. Holy shit.
Sounds good. Thanks for making it easy to know who to block
Imagine being such a jaded fuck that you can’t simply allow someone to identify how they so choose. Eat shit, PugJesus
Sounds good. Thanks for making it easy to know who to block
Christ.
What does it mean to identify as a fae? Do they literally think they’re a fae from folklore?
And to be clear, this is a genuine question.
I’m no authority to speak on this, but I can say (gender) identity and pronouns aren’t necessarily linked. Some people might lean into the fairy thing for their aesthetic or identity, others wouldn’t. Some might use fae/faer pronouns explicitly to break out of the gender binary / ternary, others might just find that these pronouns fit them. I hope someone with more knowledge on the matter could weigh on.
