This “both sides” is bullshit when you are getting a train run on you by the Republicans…
And the leader of the Democrats describes his job as “keeping the left pro Israel”.
Correct, but still not even close to the same thing. More of this “balanced” stuff.
Anywho on the plus side, he’s getting wrecked in the polls vs AOC who’s looking to take his place though.
Genocide apologist
There’s no “leader” of the Democrats, it’s a big-tent party. Chuck is head of the group of Democratic senators, but he doesn’t dictate things outside of Senate business and we don’t blindly all follow everything he says. That’s the difference between electing public servants and people in a cult.
The only time Democrats won’t fall in line is when they have to vote for Republican budget bills.
Are you denying that the Dems are shit? Just because the Reps are worse and currently in power?
What kind of an argument is that supposed to be?
What are you talking about the initial argument is completely insane to be begin with. I think Biden came into office and reduce child poverty or hunger or something by half as his first action.
We’re gonna compare that to Trump destroying the economy, removing due process, open up national parks to logging, letting DOGE cut departments with corruption, invading other countries?
Biden gleefully engaged in one of the worst genocides of the era. He should be in a cell in the Hague.
I agree I think it’s fucking horrible and I think Chuck Schumer and everyone on any side of the political aisle that upheld this should be in a jail cell too.
What are you talking about the initial argument is completely insane to be begin with. I think Biden came into office and reduce child poverty or hunger or something by half as his first action.
Are you having a stroke? I don’t follow your point and/or syntax.
We’re gonna compare that to Trump destroying the economy, removing due process, open up national parks to logging, letting DOGE cut departments with corruption, invading other countries?
What do you want from me? Obviously we agree that Trump is worse than the Dems.
That still doesn’t make the Dems “not bad”.
Nobody said the Dems were perfect OR not bad through the chain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence - is what this post is.
Nobody said the Dems were perfect OR not bad through the chain.
Never claimed that someone claimed that. Again: how is the original post wrong?
Two parties in a two party system is no case of “apples and oranges”. That’s as close to a fair comparison as you’re gonna get.
Ghonorrea and pancreatic cancer are two things I don’t want to have. Is this “false equivalency” as well?
Two parties in a two party system is no case of “apples and oranges”. That’s as close to a fair comuarison as yo’'re gonna get
stroke much?
seriously, this isn’t a “fair comparison” because it doesn’t address any sort of nuance nor is it supposed to. It’s supposed to make people go: “yeah the dems suck too” rather than understand anything about what’s going on.
If you claim to be on the same page then whatever, we can just agree on our core points leave it at that.
stroke much?
I guess you never make typos, then. Huh? /s
seriously, this isn’t a “fair comparison” because it doesn’t address any sort of nuance nor is it supposed to.
I’m sorry that I slandered ghonorrea by comparing it to pancreatic cancer. Clearly I forgot the nUaNcE between these two horrible sicknesses. /s
Wait. How can there be any “nuance” if you can’t compare the two parties? Is a comparison of apples with oranges flawed because of the “nuance”?
It’s supposed to make people go: “yeah the dems suck too” rather than understand anything about what’s going on.
That’s what you think the intent is. I think that it’s supposed to state that the US democratic system is not suitable for a fair and equitable world and the Dems are not the solution of the mess the US is in.
You can have your own interpretation but don’t assume that this was OP’s intent.
For sure, the republicans are worst.
But the dems are still not good.
Americans have no representation at all.
I can’t deal with US politics right now and this thread.
I’m fucking Canadian and people upvoting this both sides nonsense is getting my blood boiling.
I thought this enlightened centrist shit was over with but people are bringing it up like they’re some next-level IQ genius. When in reality they’re trying their to push people to the right (whether they understand it or not).
You think neoliberalism is on the left? Well, in this case yes we’re pushing people to the “right” if your scale is inverted
I’m fucking Canadian
So you probably dont even understand the full context of what you’re talking about.
Arent there other countries political websites you can go bother people on? Try Australia, your fellow commonwealth country (sorry australians). Theres plenty of other places to be a touriust with strong opinions about other peoples governments.
I’m sorry that genocide is okay to you but you draw the line at bad optics. That sounds like a you issue. Genocide apologist don’t tend to be the sharpest tools in the shed though.
When is your country going to return the land they stole to its indigenous peoples? When is the US democratic party going to stop supporting the genocide of Palestine?
If its people not voting for the US democratic party, rather than either of the above issues that “gets your blood boiling”, you might need to re-evaluate which side of the white supremacist line you’re on.
What does you being Canadian have to do with anything?
After the train run on you by democrats…
Interesting.
Obama dropped an average of 80 bombs per day on the ME and North Africa during his presidency. The number of civilians murdered is impossible to calculate.
For a USAmerican(or any other person), their primary concern would be their own safety, right?
Unless they can form/support a major third party, they are effectively forced to a two-choice system
The USA is not the world, and its citizens should start looking towards the welfare of the people their country murders.
Choosing not to participate in the two choice system is how you get a third choice btw
When both choices explicitely lead to mass murder its mandatory for any ethical person to do all they can to make some third outcome happen.
Voting quietly for what may be slightly less mass murder but certainly is still mass murder is a pathetic and shameful way to chart a course forward. A handful of us have more dignity than that.
You really don’t get it, huh?
People heard that shit last time, and they voted democrat, and Biden won. And ABSOLUTELY NOTHING changed.
At the end of the day, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, just like they did with trump, and with Obama, and with every single president who has taken office in god knows how many decades.
And still you’re here yapping “oh noes the horrors, vote Dems”.
Bro, the Dems aren’t LISTENING! Get a Bernie up there, or an AOC, or anyone that the people actually believe will do anything other than feeding the same interests they have been feeding.
And if you’re too thick to realize that, at least you’re not alone, the whole DNC is right there with you.
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Do you have a plan for that “electoral reform” that doesn’t involve said ballot box?
Do you not see the inherent contradictions there?
No I completely get the problem there. It’s going to be really hard to get electoral reform if there are no longer elections. So my focus is on preserving Democratic institutions long enough that maybe we can improve them. Obviously party leaders have no interest in seeing changes that threaten the duopoly, but there are Democrats (particularly at the state level) who have been open to reforms like rank choice voting.
If suddenly Republicans stop attacking the rule of law, checks and balances, gerrymandering districts, overriding voters, and coddling white nationalists then maybe their party would be capable of enacting positive change as well.
If you have some secret third choice that can change the system without bloodshed or voting for one of the two parties I’m all ears. If you’re going to tell me to vote third party then I’d like you to show me how you think a third party candidate can win the presidency because that’s never happened and it’s never even been close.
You talked right past the inherent contradictions and did not see them.
Assuming the US election process remains unchanged for the foreseeable future how do you get electoral reforms using the electoral process that you agree needs reforms?
I suppose I’m open to suggestions?
I understand what you’re getting at but I don’t know what kind of answer you want here. Are you suggesting that violence is the only way to achieve change? Are you suggesting that third party candidates could win a national election and then eliminate the two-party system? Are you suggesting that electing more Republicans will result in a political future that offers more power to voters to choose their own government? Do you think that electing fascists will accelerate the collapse of the state and then a more progressive ideology will rise from the ashes? Are you just cool with what the Republican party looks like right now and the way that they govern?
Do I need to specify that I’m not saying you should vote for every Democrat no matter what and that you really should consider candidates as individuals?
I guess I see the Democratic party as a deeply flawed party (with abysmally out of touch leadership) that needs serious reform and I see the Republican party as a cult of christofascist fucks that need to be defeated before they completely erode individual rights and entrench their own power for generations.
So yes. I get the contradiction in saying “You should vote for one of the two parties in order to create a political landscape where it is possible to one day move beyond the two-party system”. Partisanship makes everything harder. But if you really think both parties are the same and that it doesn’t matter which one you pick then I don’t know what to tell you.
I don’t have a good answer for you, I have a:
Your thesis is fundamentally flawed, if we are ever going to get an answer you need to stop getting mad at the people working to help you find a solution.
What I (and others) are trying to tell you is that the christofascist fuck cult goes much deeper than the surface level that you are fixated on. The “deep flaws” you see in the Democratic party aren’t bugs, they’re ‘features’.
The current status quo is deeply broken, I think we can both agree on that, yes?
The threat of violence (along with capability) has historically been a very effective tool for change (for better and worse), but I do no not see it being effective in a world where drone strikes, autonomous murder copters and nuclear weapons are a thing.
I also argue that the concept of electoralism is fundamentally broken and so electing more Republicans, Democrats, 3rd parties, goldfish, etc. is not going to solve/change anything either.
Accelerationism replaces current problems with worse ones, but my understanding is that if you’re focus is on your grandchildren and thinking in the timescale of centuries then maybe. IMO it’s one hell of a big gamble with an incredibly high cost and low odds of substantial/any progress.
What are your thoughts?
I suppose I don’t see that as a productive perspective? You’re not offering any solutions or actions to take to enact the change you want to see besides doing nothing until we collectively figure out how to have a revolution.
The system is flawed. Maybe you’re right that it is fundamentally broken and cannot be reformed but disengaging from voting only supports the status quo and those that are already in power. I think it’s worth it to vote for candidates that share some of the same values as me even if they aren’t perfect while continuing to put political pressure on leaders that are not serving the public effectively. I would vote for someone one day and join a protest against them the next day, I do not see that as a contradiction. That is just being civically engaged.
Also I know I’m probably coming in hot here but I’m truly not mad or upset. I think these are the sorts of conversations on Lemmy that are really great and hard to have in other settings. I appreciate your thoughtful responses. It seems like we’re pretty aligned on what the problems are. I’m very open to solutions that don’t involve harming others but if you aren’t a voter I’d strongly encourage you to consider voting, though I agree that voting alone will not solve every problem.
Downvotes are disabled on my instance; multiple people think you wrote something inane. I have no problem replying to you telling you that you live in a dictatorship of capital where both sides are the same but you are so propagandized and ignorant you can’t even see the truth right in front of your nose. One side enables the other, the US functions as a whole. The democracy there is kay fabe and predetermined. You don’t get a vote for the board members of Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Blackstone, Raytheon etc.
It blows my mind that even now, there are people like you who claim they can’t tell the difference between Biden and Trump.
I can tell the difference, in the same way I can tell the difference between a father that molests his children and the wife that covers for and enables him.
You have to remember that, unlike you, some people consider the lives of foreigners to be worth as much as the lives of Americans
It blows my mind that you interpreted what he said that way.
I quote, absolutely directly:
both sides are the same
It’s a breathtakingly stupid take.
Not sure what you said but 100% agreed
Haha, a removed comment, I shall assume everything it said was 100% in line with my beliefs.
What a sad way to view the world and all its viewpoints…
I don’t know why you all tolerate this pathetic c3nsorshep here. All I said in my “unalived” comment was basically that there is 1 party in the USA that illegally disappears people, crashes the global economy (for you and me!), is corrupt, etc, and the other one tried to give everybody health care. “b07H s1des” right!?
Your daily reminder that blueMAGA doesn’t consider Palestinians to be people.
Curious how democrats decided to do genocide over obstructing any of the dastardly acts on your list. Is it lost on you how the democrats are controlled opposition?
If, in 20 years, your choice is between a democrat who wants 9 genocides and a republican who wants 10, which would you choose?
You can’t justify it anymore dude. Trump wants a forced relocation of Palestinians. No one on the Dem side mentioned that shit. Republicans want to see the end of the Palestinians and that’s true genocide. Dems had to walk the line between an ally and a group getting mass murdered.
We have contract obligations to assist Iseral. Biden was just following what America had promised. Not supporting genocide. But sure blame him if you sleep better.
Now you’re faced with Trump Gaza #1.
The one who wants fewer genocides, how is that even a question?
But much better would be using those 20 years to empower progressives at the local level, so they have the experience to get elected to the state level, which gives them the experience to be competitive at the federal level. No one is saying to just support the Dems forever. You can spend 1 day every 4 years helping the Republicans lose, and spend the other 1460 fighting for better options. I recommend it, in fact.
Voting lesser evil slows the descent into fascism while we build the progressive base necessary for a progressive to win the general election. No one is saying the lesser evil is good, we know it’s evil, that’s why we call it the lesser evil. But it is the lesser evil, and when you have a choice between two evils winning, the lesser evil is preferable.
Voting for a third party with no chance of winning, or not voting at all, does not give us better options. Building a successful third party takes time and many, many wins in smaller elections. Personally, I’d rather spend that time under a neo-liberal regime than a Christofascist one. They’re both bad, but one is unambiguously worse.
Vote progressive for every local office you can. If there are no progressive options, consider running yourself or convincing a politically inclined friend to do so. If we all show up for every single election, and flood every level of government with progressives, maybe in 20 years we’ll have a better choice than 9 genocides vs 10 genocides. But every Republican win helps gerrymander and disenfranchise us further from that goal.
Surely nobody thought of this 20 years ago when George fucking Bush was in office. Or 40 years ago when Reagan was in office. This idea of pushing the liberal party left and running locally is a totally fresh and original idea and definitely isn’t a distraction from organizing the working class into a force of its own which demands concessions from the ruling class at the threat of upheaval.
It’s not a new idea, we just haven’t been implementing it. And who said anything about pushing the liberal party left? It’s not about parties, it’s about politicians and their policies. Run third party wherever it’s viable, run Democrat where it isn’t, it’s really not that important what letter is next to your name. What’s important is your platform.
definitely isn’t a distraction from organizing the working class into a force of its own
That’s exactly what I’m suggesting. What is “showing up to every election to vote for progressives” if not organizing the working class? What kind of organization do you think has a lower barrier than voting? If we can’t organize the working class to vote one day every couple years, how on Earth do you expect them to jeopardize their safety and livelihoods with more direct action?
And even then, those approaches aren’t mutually exclusive. Voting in no way prevents you from organizing. In fact, strategically voting against the fascists explicitly helps the push to organize. It’s much easier to protest when the reaction is a smug “I’m talking now”, than when the reaction is having your degree retroactively nullified or, y’know, getting deported to an El Salvadorian gulag.
It’s kind of why we need Ranked Choice Voting.
Alternative voting systems have in practice been proven useless, whether in South Korea, Japan, Australia, and many other capitalist dictatorship countries that use it. It might make bribery a bit more expensive, since there are more candidates to buy off, and more political advertising necessary, but it hasn’t fixed anything.
The root problem is capital standing above political power. And that can’t be undone using it’s own platform.
How are you measuring useless?
Australia has RCV and has more than 2 active political parties.
most countries that are not the US have more than 2 political parties.
RCV hasn’t stopped right wing governments from coming to power, nor returned lands to indigenous Australians, nor done anything to reverse concentration of wealth or media ownership.
True, it’s just a voting system. It can’t do those things unless people vote for those things to happen.
The thing RCV does do is break us out of the control of a 2-party government. So we could have a communist party with RCV, but can’t in our current system.
You can’t achieve a democracy through voting, it always results in an oligarchy. The wealthy / economically dominant classes are the only ones who have enough money / prestige to finance their campaigns and win the popularity contest. It makes any political system based on elections nothing more than political theatre.
This is basic stuff even the ancient greeks knew, and communists learned through trial and error, yet liberals in the 21st century can’t wrap their heads around it.
i live somewhere with mandatory voting, and have looked into places with ranked choice. it doesnt do much.
the problem is capitalism and the rich’s interests being paid for instead of ours. not how the ballots are made or counted.
I hear people say this, but how do we get it?
The people in power will lose their power if we did, so we won’t.
It’s up to the states. It already implemented in Maine and Alaska, with a majority of people in those state approving of it.
I’m still pissed off it was voted down in Oregon
Obligatory “stop looking left and right, start looking up and down.”,
One side are literal fascists and the other is not. Nothing else matters compared to that.
Why did the Biden regime give $18B to Israel to help murder Palestinian civilians?
Can you answer for any of Obama’s equally vicious war crimes?
Trump and his fascist goons are worse. Period. End of discussion.
Biden was the one who first proposed ethnically cleansing the Gazan population.
Do you think Biden is the prime minister of Israel?
We’re talking in an American context here. Don’t try to deflect.
The only deflection is pretending that what is happening in Gaza is Biden’s idea and not a continuation of 70 years of policy held by both parties.
"[Supporting Israel] is the best $3 billion investment we make. Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region.”
- Biden
Period. End of discussion.
You fucking baby
both sides are literally fascist. one is just covert about it.
You really should look up the definition of fascist, because you are using it wrong.
Which parts of the definition don’t they meet?
Let’s go with Umberto Eco’s definition since it is well known and it is numbered for easy reference.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism#Overview
The only part that might apply to Democrats is #6.
2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 13, and 14 all apply to the Democrats
From Wikipedia:
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Opposed to Marxism, democracy, anarchism, pluralism, free markets, egalitarianism, communism, liberalism, and socialism, fascism is at the far right of the traditional left–right spectrum.
Democrats are right-wing, but not far-right. Democrats are not authoritarian or ultranationalist, Democrats are not characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, or belief in a natural social hierarchy. Democrats are not opposed to democracy, egalitarianism, or liberalism.
Democrats are most definitely authoritarian and Ultranationalist. They are also hugely militarist and autocratic, as well as holding a strong belief in hierarchy. They’re also opposed to democracy and egalitarianism.
“Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in democracy, separation of powers, civil liberties, and the rule of law.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
Democrats do not reject political plurality.
Democrats do not reduce democracy (rather they increase it by defending voting rights).
Democrats protect the separation of powers, civil liberties, and the rule of law.
Democrats do not fit the definition of nationalism, let alone ultranationalism.
They do not hold strong beliefs in hierarchy, oppose democracy, or oppose egalitarianism. That’s just an outright lie.
Authoritarianism is when the government does stuff. The opposite would be libertarianism where corporations rule and company towns come back and villages get taken over by bears
One side are literal fascists and the other is the former’s enables.
FTFY
Fascism is capitalism in decay and imperialists are scared of their empire decaying
I always find it amusing yet chilling when libs try to distinguish themselves from fascism by labeling it on pretty much everyone other than their own (e.g. AfD, Republicans, center-right, “”“”“far-left”“”“”“”), almost as if they refuse to acknowledge that they’re in the fasch club too, scratched or otherwise.
Yea so this is why I support third parties. Dems need to be better than “not fascist”
I love how 3% third parties with no chance of upending either party are super effective at killing specifically non-conservative campaigns AND helping checkers-players feel smug faster. Take a bow for being part of today’s problem.
Thus helping a facist wins. Great move.
So long as we are an FPTP system with the current 2 options it’s just shooting the non-fascist option in the foot for no reason. Gotta keep non-fascist around so you can actually have a chance at fixing things without getting gulaged.
Both parties are fascist
Objectively false
Genocide apologist
Not about that though, is it?
In America, it matters which people are for the party, not which party supports people.
bUt iT’s bEtTeR WhEn dEmOcRaTs aRe iN CoNtRoL BeCaUsE ThErE’s nO FaCiSm!1!1
I learned from looking at this thread logged out on lemmy.ml that libs would prefer a single party state. I must mean they finally see the Chinese point of view LOL
they’re kool aide drinking themselves into a single party state. lol
Will you still be saying that when you’re in a camp for talking shit about the government? Probably not.
no one is; but there are plenty of people who insist that the democrats are better because they dump a little bit less shit on you than the republicans while refusing to admit that shit piles up no matter how little you do it.
Less shit sure sounds better than more.
When I have the luxury of choosing no shit, I do.
of course it sounds better; the democrat’s entire schtick is sounding better, but substantively the same.
I think if you pay attention you can see that while both aren’t great, one of them is worse.
no one’s arguing that one isn’t worse; but there are plenty of people who keep regurgitating this deflecting talking point and that makes it clear thorough the indoctrination has become.
One wants to put us all in concentration camps, the other doesn’t. Hmmm, let’s go with the psycho narcissist concentration option. Gee, I hope it works out for us.
Of course. Its the whole bourgieoise’s fault after all
Dear nonUSers: why are you still talking to us as if you can reach us?
Neither party will ever willingly give up the two party system, as they both benefit from it. At some point Americans need to start backing third parties or everything will just continue to go in circles indefinitely.
That, and do some non-electoral things if you’re picking up what i’m putting down
The problem of the US is, it is an neo-liberal feudalism with the right to vote between right wing and far right wing to be able to label it as democracy which it never really was. You have the choice to get fucked with or without lubrication, currently the last one.
funniest comment section of all time. my country truly will never change for the better.
I, John Brown, am now quite certain, that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away, but with blood.
He did know that already in 1859
That’s what happens when lobbies can just buy your politicians
well to be fair %100 republicans and about %90 of democrats don’t give a shit about you
