reminder that the world did not enjoy it the last time Europeans were super powerful
Yeah, they all hated each other and their internal beer hall brawl spilled out over the borders. It wasn’t that Europe was any kind of united force. Maybe it’s time. We’re fucked in the US, now.
Though I gotta admit it’s ironic AF that the Allies set up Germany with a far better constitution/Grundgesezt and government framework than our own Constitution which ended up essentially frozen because politics have gotten so bad that opening it up would have probably destroyed whatever good remained in it thanks to talibangelicals and corporate money.
I think they were talking about colonialism, not WW2
Europe is the biggest provider of independence days !
Not even most Europeans.
Hi Americans!
Europe is not the Germans.
This time you’ll get the Vikings, the Romans, the Conquistadors, the Spartans and the people who ruled the world by the cunning use of flags all teamed together.
The British imperialists genocided more people throughout their history than the Germans. Just that the Brits took their time with it. The French, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgians, Dutch and Italians also have many million skeletons in their closet and the French massacred millions of people trying to gain independence after World War 2.
If you go to any place in the world outside of Europe there is a good chance that Europeans committed a massacre there to steal land and resources at some point in the past few hundred years.
But not now, now for the most part they’re all democratic countries.
You hang on to the past so hard and you get Gaza, India Pakistan war, the Middle East etc.
A country being democratic for some people has absolutely no indication of whether it is an imperialist threat to other countries.
Do you think the countries being invaded by the US or having their legitimate governments overthrown and fascist puppets installed care about the US being democratic on the inside? Do you think Pakistan is less threatened by India because it is a democratic country? Do you think the Serbian massacres in Bosnia were acceptable and the Kosovarians were welcoming the Serbian invaders because Serbia became democratic a few years earlier?
Also the Middle East like many post colonial areas in Africa are unstable precisely because the French and British democracies designed artificial countries in a way that will cause tensions by separating people such as the Kurdish people into many states and throwing together different people into single states. Continued military “interventions”, arming groups in proxy wars and other meddling certainly doesn’t help either. Take Libya for instance where France is helping the Haftar regime to continue waging war against the internationally recognized government alongside Russia, Wagner, the UAE and Egypt.
Take Libya for instance where France is helping the Haftar regime to continue waging war against the internationally recognized government alongside Russia, Wagner, the UAE and Egypt.
Pretty sure France is not there to be along with Russia and Wagner but because Russia and Wagner is there. Russia’s interest is to grow influence and cause issues to Europe.
You would be surprised. France and the US are having a proxy war in Africa for decades. When it comes to shady business they don’t give a shit who’s who
But who are they fighting in those proxy wars?
France is there to get cheap Libyan oil from a warlord. If that means partnering with Wagner they are fine doing so.
If France was interested in challenging Russian influence they would support the internationally recognized government and help its fight against Haftar. You know, like how limiting Russian influence in Ukraine is done by helping Ukraine, not by helping Russia allied separatists in Luchansk.
France is there to get cheap Libyan oil from a warlord.
I will need more convincing on that. But I do see that France’s involment does have pretty bad optics - and maybe reasons. But because France is not the only one there, it sure isn’t something black and white.
And I wouldn’t draw comparisons to Ukraine as the Libya has unfortunately have had so much internal instability that is not comparable - though one could say something Euromaiden and the aftermath of it but that is still order of magnitudes different starting point.
Europe is not the Germans.
The English ran laps around the Germans in terms of human attrocity for centuries.
The French weren’t far behind.
Power corrupts. No single country should be a global superpower
That’s fine, Europe is several countries.
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It’s a thin line indeed. Aren’t the countries in the UK closer to being actual countries than the US states?
Not really. All American States have the same level of inherent sovereignty. There are also a lot of federal programs that rely the individual states performing the work. States also maintain their own militaries under partial or complete state control.
In contrast, UK country sovereignty is a mixed bag, with the largest country in the UK without any devolved powers.
The US generally views American state sovereignty more in line with EU country sovereignty.
You cannot compare the US’ setup to Europe’s. One is a nation that is still incredibly young and was sliced up like a cake for several territories that still are relatively homogenous in culture.
The other is a continent consisting of countries with very diverse cultures and thousands of years of history, who made a union to collaborate on certain political issues.
The two are not even close to being the same. Not even close.
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The line is when all the countries agree to become one big country. Which will never happen in Europe. The US is different as it never got to be a bunch of individual countries with centuries long history (if we ignore the native americans’ old territories) before becoming the US. That development happened simultaneously while the country and its rules were formed. The concept of country was already well known at the time too, while Europe, like most of the world, figured that shit out slowly and over centuries.
This is why Europe will never become one country. The history is too ancient and the cultures run too deep. There is no way that I as a Dane would agree to become a citizen of United Europe where I lose my identity and history as a Dane and now have to build some new identity with other Europeans. We have many things in common, but we are not the same. The Soviet Union already experimented with this stuff, and it didn’t work out because the countries it forced to become part of a unified nation with the same identity, didn’t agree to it. It was forced and it was damaging to these countries’ identities.
I do not know a single European who would want to become one country and none of us would agree that the European Union’s setup is in any way similar to the US. It is not the same.
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On the contrary, periods of imperial hegemony have been some of the more stable and peaceful episodes of human history. One of them is ending right now.
Yeah. People like to complain about American warmongering, but the period between World Wars I and II was orders of magnitude more deadly.
The stability isn’t much consolation to the slaves who die under empires
The only way to enforce that, is to be a global superpower
EU already absorbed Switzerland in this pic despite them not wanting it, so there’s that.
Undid Brexit too already
No Iceland either 😔
Switzerland is 100% dependent on the EU.
That’s not true.
They are completely landlocked by the EU and their Airspace.
Also most of their imports/exports go there.
They don’t even farm enough to sustain themselves. So yes, obviously it’s true
Landlocked does not mean dependent.
They also are not completely dependent which 100% means.
Last time I looked into imports and exports of countries Switserland was around 50-60%.
Of course it does mean that.
If the EU wants, they can fuck up Switzerland quite badly.
All they have to do is to close the borders and airspace.
The claim was “100% dependent” which is extremely incorrect.
Not a single country in the world is 100% dependent.
Furthermore, the threat of an attack does not imply dependence.
That phrasing was obviously hyperbole, since 100% dependence isn’t even a well-defined statement (you can not assign a simple percentage to degree of dependence). Using it as a point to argue against is misguided at best, disingenuous at worst. You should read it as “it is definitely dependent [to a high degree]” rather than “it is entirely dependent”.
I mean they mostly are, they’re approx. 50% dependent for agriculture, so if the EU were to block all borders and halt all exports to them the Swiss would become significantly skinnier than they were before.
No shame in that by the way, the Swiss also provide the EU with lots of stuff and services that are valuable.
The almighty Nordic cock and balls
Norway should really check a doctor
Dang! Cannot unsee anymore
I can’t unsee Putin screaming at Poland at the balcans, seeing both goes together quite nicely
The top US export is oil.
If you want to do something, wean yourself off oil. Big push for solar, wind, and anything else that doesn’t rely on digging up bits of dinosaurs.
Electric vehicles, public transport, bikes, walking.
And as an added bonus, the world gets a little cleaner. Might be important, you know.
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In 2022, renewable energy sources contributed 31% of the electricity used in Texas. Fucking Texas.
Get those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers.
Why is the forsaken UK still on the map ?
'cause we know this relationship has its ups and downs but isn’t over yet
Right, like the UK is a sibling that you hated growing up, but as adults it’s not so bad and you know you’re going to be friends again once they go through their binge drinking phase.
Not only EU beurocrats are slow to process informations 😖
Data from the general population https://github.com/twosheds2/wiki-eugraph
Still too close. The mistake of Brexit was taking such an important decision based on a slim majority, you need at least an absolute majority, 66%.
I would put it more that there should have been an agreement on what Brexit would be pursued. The pro-Brexit camp promoted all forms of Brexit while there wasn’t a good idea on how Brexit would be implemented.
The UK still hasn’t solved the trilemma.
Interesting. Are those poll results sampled amongst the general population, or something more specific like from the parliament ?
Our island is full of idiots but I swear we can make this up to you
The continent is full of idiots too. Their are no reasons for us to feel superior about this on this side of the pond.
France, Germany and Italy are giving it a good go too. I think our position on Ukraine has made the UK a lot of friends in Europe. That and voting out the Tories.
Switzerland and Liechtenstein are also not member states, and Estonia’s islands are not shown.
Scotland has islands on this map, but in a really weird way: all of the five biggest ones are missing, and I’m 95% sure that one of the two depicted is actually a peninsula that the map has chopped off from the mainland
Alternatively we can just assume Norway took the islands back
They bothered to remove the non-EU Balkan states and Norway, but filled up Switzerland. This map is just terrible.
Waiting for the George Costanza move
Economically and culturally, Europe is already a superpower. Militarily it isn’t, and maybe that’s not a terrible thing. Politically, it just seems to have a bias for moving slowly and by consensus, although it responded quickly to COVID and the assault on Ukraine, so it can do what’s needed?
We have too many traitors like Orban in the EU. The work against us.
Weird map. The non-Union Balkan states and Norway are cut out, but Switzerland is filled in.
fuk switzerland, free riding mfers
Some of you European federalists seem keen to annex and rule to ensure a full and strong federation.
Switzerland spends a fraction of what their neighbors do on defense as a portion of GDP, which they get to do because of the benevolence of those neighbors. They’re “neutral” because they know that their neighbors are peaceful which they take full advantage of while contributing nothing. Of course their neutrality also conveniently allows them to harbor the money of the worst people and regimes in the world, going all the way back to Nazi Germany.
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The inefficiency of democracy is not a flaw, it’s a fundamental feature
Double-edged sword, as it were.
I would say it is more of a tradeoff. Being able to quickly make decisions is nice. But I rather have a strong and democratic parliament than a president as powerful as a medieval monarch.
I recognise you’re just expressing frustration towards current affairs – a frustration I often share, but:
Decisions require a mandate and the reason the EU has problems making decisions about some things is that it wasn’t designed to address them in the first place.
It’s simply a slightly over-grown trading union with occasional federalist aspirations.
Responding to tariffs - fast and coordinated.
Responding to external military threats - scattered and complicated.
Tap for spoiler
As a sidenote: According to John Bolton Trump, at least during his first term, was completely oblivious to how the European Union worked and was somehow also under the impression that Juncker, then president of the European Commission, got to decide the NATO budget. Crazy, right?
That’s why the EU’s response to defense was based on financial instruments.
To become a “superpower” and/or make quick decisions regarding e.g. military threats, it would need to actually become a state-like entity and begin building several bureaucratic arms it currently lacks which doesn’t usually happen overnight. Not to mention establishing actual policies.
Before we get to that stage though, a consensus between member states needs to be formed and all manner of legal documents drafted. Centralising power means less independence for member states which is usually a hard sell. It would likely also require member states to alter their constitutions which could be an incredibly slow process even without resistance from all the respective governments. Not to mention the fact that a popular vote in all member states might be a good idea democracy-wise.
I’m not saying necessarily it’s something we shouldn’t pursue and hey, under extraordinary circumstances even bureaucracy can move quickly but it is a huge deal and moving quickly could also mean skirting around established democratic principles. (Actually iirc European bureaucracy is generally quite efficient as is –contrary to popular belief)
I guess I wrote this in the hopes of fighting disillusionment even though it’s not the core message here. We’ll do what we have to and I’m positive we’ll get to wherever we need to be in order to survive and thrive in this century. It will require patience, nerve and active participation from all of us though.
Last thing I want us to become is like the folks over in the States claiming it’s all already over. (A minority, I hope)
Sorry for the wall of text, I guess I had some stuff pent up.
One thing I remember from the Brexit “debate” was that many viewed the prospect of the EU having an army as a terrible thing that couldn’t be allowed.
“It’s the Germans wanting to re-militarize under a different flag”
Fast-forward 6 years and Russia invaded Ukraine and the mood has certainly shifted on that one.
“Come on Germany. Get those factories going.”
True.
Maybe they need to appoint someone to be in charge, who can make decisions and really get things done.
I like a democratic parliament more. Otherwise we may have a Trump in Europe. I don’t want a singe person as powerful as a medieval monarch to decide over about half a billion people.
Otherwise we may have a Trump in Europe.
You have at least two, and arguably more, right now. Historically you’ve had some real fucking doozies too, people that make Trump look like a school child.
I don’t want a singe person as powerful as a medieval monarch to decide over about half a billion people.
That’s what you’ll get eventually.
Cant tell if youre being sarcastic or not
Always
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The EU is mostly on a peninsula. The only direct threat right now comes from Russia, with maybe some sort of Ottoman Empire style Muslim Empire being a potential problem. Europe has enough coastline to easily trade in resources. As long as the US and China leave Europe alone, there is no real reason to even become a global superpower.
Seriously if Ukraine wins, then Europe is rich and secure for quite some time.
We’re united in in-action, politically and economically!
You have to use more sticks …
They’re working on it
It already is.
