To this day, she remembers the racing thoughts, the instant nausea, the hairs prickling up on her legs, the sweaty palms. She had shared a photograph of herself in her underwear with a boy she trusted and, very soon, it had been sent around the school and across her small home town, Aberystwyth, Wales. She became a local celebrity for all the wrong reasons. Younger kids would approach her laughing and ask for a hug. Members of the men’s football team saw it – and one showed someone who knew Davies’s nan, so that’s how her family found out.
Her book, No One Wants to See Your D*ck, takes a deep dive into the negatives. It covers Davies’s experiences in the digital world – that includes cyberflashing such as all those unsolicited dick pics – as well as the widespread use of her images on pornography sites, escort services, dating apps, sex chats (“Ready for Rape? Role play now!” with her picture alongside it). However, the book also shines a light on the dark online men’s spaces, what they’re saying, the “games” they’re playing. “I wanted to show the reality of what men are doing,” says Davies. “People will say: ‘It’s not all men’ and no, it isn’t, but it also isn’t a small number of weirdos on the dark web in their mum’s basements. These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.”
I think part of why she didn’t seen men fighting some of the shitty stuff online is due to the echochamber effect of those communities. Any resistance is downvoted, dogpiled with hateful comments, and maybe even removed by a biased mod. A lot of the good men who would defend in those comments don’t even browse those specific forums because of how toxic and shitty they can be.
The good men aren’t there and don’t even know what’s going on. I’ve used Reddit and Lemmy but have blocked the NSFW/NSFL stuff. There is no opportunity to denounce or report because I remain deliberately blissfully ignorant.
Also why would I ever recognize a space like that and not run away. “Calling out” is still participation, and why would I want to participate (incl. from the legal perspective). I have the moral obligation to do that because…I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
I have the moral obligation to do that because…I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
They explicitly don’t want us non-shitty men there to harsh their vibe and will refuse to listen, so yeah, what the fuck are we supposed to do?
If I see it happening IRL I shut it down and use my 6’4" powers to look down at whoever’s doing it and give them a good scare, but I’m not gonna go to the fucking incel forums and make my day worse for no goddamn reason
Right. In real life you can look someone in the eye and see some semblance of humanity (or at least fear). Online, it doesn’t matter what you say or how you’re perceived, because people get to hide in their perceived anonymity. And you never know when some psychopath with no morals or sense of decency is going to have you swatted.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community founded for the sole goal of normalizing that toxicity in some misguided attempt to reform such people is beyond what any one person can be expected to engage with.
Precisely. It’s completely different from doing that in your group of friends, where confrontation is a way to establish common values, and in an internet cesspool where anyway I am going to be moderated out.
Just yesterday I was reading a great article about how social medias compare to TV when it comes to feeling part of a group. “Calling out” people in such places wouldn’t be anything else that virtue signaling (to yourself) to reaffirm your own identity (I stand up to sexism), and at the same time allow those people to reaffirm themselves (I get confronted because I am speaking truth).
Basically it would be at most a performance.
What’s the point of wrestling with a pig? You both get muddy, and the pig likes it.
Maybe it’s because I grew up with the old, “mean” internet, but my response to communities full of trash is to leave them alone and let the blind lead the blind. Seriously, what the hell is arguing with them going to do? They expect to be challenged, they will not see reason, they will not suffer to be helped, and you are not going to be the person who changes that.You’re absolutely right, but haven’t I read that they’re learning to lie about their presence in the manophere? So if it’s, say 10% who actively think and act that way, plus 15% passively subject themselves to it without going all in, but who aren’t really judging, that’s 1/4 guys who I wouldn’t risk a relationship with, many of whom are actively hiding their positions. I can see why it wouldn’t be worth it to date any man. Especially for someone with her experiences.
And my IRL impression is that it’s way more guys than 15% who intentionally expose themselves to it, and slightly more than 10% who fully buy into the misogyny.
I agree, and in my opinion, women and partners in general need to get better at leaving piece of shit men (or shitty partners in general). Many of them keep acting like this cause they get away with it after some small talk and a nice dinner just to be a piece of shit again next week. I’ve known girls who date men who genuinely claim that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote and all i can think is “why is this girl staying with someone who hates them?”
Fear.
We should have social systems to help people over come those fears and protect them from threats, both physical and financial. No one should be forced to be with someone they fear because of finances, childcare, safety, or loneliness.
Not all shitty partners induce fear. I’ve known some girls who are just head over heels due to how attractive, wealthy, or mostly sweet a guy is. The good times outshine the bad times and they get into the “i can fix him” mentality. My brother is like that where he has gotten away with cheating with nearly every partner he has had. It usually takes the girl months to finally leave him and say its been enough. Hes the chad gym type and genuinely doesn’t have to try to pull women. Any time they threaten to leave he gets all sweet, shows up with gifts and acts romantic and sexy just to get caught cheating again next week.
We need to be hard on ourselves sometimes and push manipulative people out of our lives. I think an erosion of IRL friendships has influenced this trend as well. I used to know girls who would band together to help a girl get rid of a shitty guy they were infatuated with but that is much harder to do online than in person.
We should have social systems to help people over come those fears and protect them from threats, both physical and financial. No one should be forced to be with someone they fear because of finances, childcare, safety, or loneliness.
I don’t disagree with that. I would support that in a heartbeat if I had the funds to do so.
Not all shitty partners induce fear. I’ve known some girls who are just head over heels due to how attractive, wealthy, or mostly sweet a guy is. The good times outshine the bad times and they get into the “i can fix him” mentality.
Sure, not all shitty partners, but there is often more going on behind closed doors than many people realize.
My brother is like that where he has gotten away with cheating with nearly every partner he has had. It usually takes the girl months to finally leave him and say its been enough. Hes the chad gym type and genuinely doesn’t have to try to pull women. Any time they threaten to leave he gets all sweet, shows up with gifts and acts romantic and sexy just to get caught cheating again next week.
That’s called “love bombing” and is a common part of the cycle of abuse.
We need to be hard on ourselves sometimes and push manipulative people out of our lives. I think an erosion of IRL friendships has influenced this trend as well. I used to know girls who would band together to help a girl get rid of a shitty guy they were infatuated with but that is much harder to do online than in person.
I don’t disagree with that, however, people like this tend to worm their way into positions of authority like a parasite that you can’t get rid of. The fact that they often have zero issues lying through their teeth to get you on “their side” is a massive issue that many of the general public simply cannot grasp (“why would my wife/husband/preacher/friend/etc lie to me?” etc…).
It gets even worse when someone like that gets their hands on the very methods used to build those organizations and tears them all down. See the current state of the USA for example. I lived with an abusive partner for 11 years, and there is an unbelievable amount of parallels between them and the current US administration. What they are doing right now is incredibly triggering, knowing that I essentially have no escape from it.
spoiler
sadfgsgsdg
I don’t understand your argument and you haven’t addressed the issue at hand.
Please spell out for me why a woman in a relationship with a man who believes that women shouldn’t have the right to vote, can’t exit that relationship?
Victims of abuse are victims
Note that the person you responded to didn’t mention abuse, you introduced the term “abuse”. We’re talking about women in relationships with assholes, not abused women.
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Have you forgotten the entire context of this thread?
Nope.
Did you even glance at the article?
I read every word.
They also talked about … a man who doesn’t want his partner to vote
That is not what they talked about. They said “men who genuinely claim that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote”. That is not the same thing as a man who displays controlling behaviour over their partner.
Can you really not infer anything from that?
There’s no need for anyone to infer anything in this discussion, it’s quite clear and explicit what people are talking about.
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Victims of abuse are victims who need external assistance.
You may better understand what someone is saying if you respond to their whole sentence and not just the part you wanted to attack.
Abuse is abuse regardless of how small you as an outsider perceive it. Women in relationships with assholes who believe they should have no rights are always being abused by the aforementioned asshole.
Women in relationships with assholes who believe they should have no rights
Firstly, the original commenter who described the kind of relationship we’re discussing didn’t say “no rights” they said “shouldn’t be allowed to vote” which is a very much more limited view than what you’re raging against.
are always being abused by the aforementioned asshole.
That’s not the situation that was described by the original commenter. Just because someone is an asshole and has reprehensible views, doesn’t necessarily mean that they are abusive. There’s a difference and if you can’t see and acknowledge that difference then you’re just engaging in misandry. In which case, best of luck, take care, bye now.
You sure do like to cherry pick and blast incel rhetoric eh?
Don’t worry about further response, you aren’t worth the time.
Misandry is when someone says men who believe women shouldn’t be allowed to vote are abusive.
Thank you for that elevated, nuanced take, king.
Victims of abuse are victims who need external assistance.
Agreed. Assistance, implementation of which requires understanding of why they’re not leaving those assholes, worse, returning to them, or fall into the same pattern with a different asshole, all on their ostensibly free will.
The question is “how can the capability to leave the abuser be built”. It involves, in one way or the other, a change in the victim. Getting better at leaving pieces of shit.
Seriously I have difficulty, and this might be male perspective, to equate “need to get better at” with the frame “you’re at fault”. At some point, I needed to get good at cooking. Was it my fault that I couldn’t cook? Nope. It’s not like I didn’t show interest as a kid, it’s that noone ever bothered to actually teach me anything, so I didn’t know anything. Still had to get good at it. It’s a problem so you solve it. Why would I care wasting my breath blaming my upbringing it only distracts from learning. It can provide an excuse, but excuses don’t make dinner.
Ah, fuck it, let’s risk it. My edgetake on why some women end up again and again with assholes: Because noone told them (early enough?) that they can go to a kind guy, start a tickle fight, and get all the thrill they’ll ever want. It’s a function of attraction to the capability to throw down.
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You’re essentially saying “just nut up and do it.”
No. I said that the question is:
how can the capability to leave the abuser be built
I didn’t ever compare what’s necessary for that with learning to cook. The cooking thing was about how it’s silly to go from “doesn’t know how to” to “you’re at fault”. I used, specifically, an example far enough from abuse so it could be a general point, not tangled up with the dating assholes bit.
Where I did get into “How can it be built” was my edgetake later: Figure out why assclowns are so damn attractive that some women go back to them, put up with them, and then don’t blame the woman for having that attraction, but find a safe outlet. I’m sure that’s not the whole of the solution but I do think that it’s a necessary component.
We understand people can be brainwashed/emotionally and mentally manipulated to unbelievable extremes - watch any of the hundreds of cult documentaries that have come out over the last decade.
Steven Hassan’s BITE model is a good start for that kind of information, the interesting thing being that a lot of those cult-manipulation techniques are visible in anything from individual relationships (not just romantic ones either, parent/child in either direction, “friends”,…) over cults and religions to workplaces and political movements.
These women don’t leave because these men are narcissistic assholes who have destroyed their self-esteem and made them think they are worthless and won’t find anything better and can’t live on their own.
Additionally, those kinds of shitbags routinely get tossed out of respectable places. What brings the manosphere, and things like it, together is usually a shared experience of rejection and isolation.
Right. As a guy, I’ve never received a nude pic of a girl from a friend. I’ve never had a friend tell me that he sends girls dick pics. I’ve never been in an online community where photos of women are traded like what is described above - I wouldn’t even know where to start looking for this. I’ve never heard about anyone I know having their pictures shared, or anyone I know sharing pictures of someone else in an unethical way. This is quite simply a social sphere that I am completely excluded from. The idea that I have any responsibility or capacity to police this kind of behavior is ludicrous - what am I supposed to do? Talk to my friends and say “So, look at any unethical porn lately, bro?” Or spend my time seeking out toxic communities so I can debate them/report them, instead of going outside and having a life?
“I’ve never had a friend tell me he sends girls dick pics” Well he wouldn’t, would he? They know it’s toxic behavior even though they enjoy doing it and might even brag about it with equally toxic guys. This is a problem women constantly have, the men in their lives don’t believe things are happening because it doesn’t happen when they’re there. It’s a far less niche sphere than it appears to you, and I agree it’s probably not going to be out in front of you for you to do something about. But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so. So if they do, they’re probably not lying or imagining it. Even if your experience of that guy is completely different. And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so.
Ideally I wouldn’t assume anything based on such broad generalities. I would base my understanding on my understanding of the person making the claim. If the woman making the claim has shown tendencies in the past of lying and starting drama, I will likely do nothing, and will sort of quietly wander away to find another conversation because I don’t want to be involved in whatever shit she is starting now. Though I will also probably never be present for this conversation, since I probably would have removed this person from my life a long time ago and would actively avoid interacting with them, because it is an unpleasant experience. If I know the woman to generally be trustworthy and straightforward, I will say “wow, that sucks, let me know if I can do anything to help you feel better”.
I’ve known several women who confessed to me that they’d been sexually assaulted in the past. My response, more or less, was “wow, I’m sorry that happened to you. Let me know if you want to talk about it more, or if there is anything I can do to help.” And that is the extent of what I can do, since I have no idea who the people who assaulted them are. It’s not like I can just bust down some random guy’s door and beat him up.
And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
Such as…? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I assume you are talking about the conversations where guys say things like “no means yes, yes means anal” - which, again, I have never, ever been involved in. Like, ever. I don’t know who these people are or where they hang out. I infer they exist based on second hand accounts if others. But they seem to not like me, and don’t invite me to their parties.
When my male friends and I talk about women, our conversations usually go: ugh, why don’t girls like me?; ugh, my girlfriend is being distant and standoffish; ugh, my girlfriend broke up with me. I’ve never had a friend speak poorly of women in general, say they “deserve” anything as a group, or anything like that.
So, again, this seems like a big case of “I can’t do anything about this, so I’m not going to worry about it.”
Yup. I’m not going to actively hang out with shitheads just to try and change them. I will however steamroll over them if they come into MY space and do it.
Instagrams algorithm purposely pits extreme opposing view points against each other to drive engagement via hate comments to sell enraged consumers knickknacks and graphic T-shirts.
Christian vs atheist
Red vs blue
Abortion vs choice
Even vegan vs carnivore
The faster we abandon social media sites the better.
I explicitly stay away from such groups. I call it out in person, and politely check my friends when they say something that they might not realize is harmful, exactly the same way I expect them to check me, but that’s just it. That kind of discourse isn’t welcome in these groups because they were created with one explicit purpose: to justify and normalize the absolute shittiest behavioursof the most sexiest of male culture.
She’s right, it isn’t a small amount of men. But it’s a supermajority in certain circles, and a tiny, neglible minority in others. She, unfortunately, exposed herself to the worst of men enmasse. We should instead go to those latter circles, and avoid/ostracize those former circles, until they realize if their only goal is sex, they’ll have to figure out how to be a decent person first. And men, choose to be better.
Guys seem to like going into a game together and fighting against overwhelming odds, working together to shoot down the enemy. Even if they “die” several times.
Maybe it would be interesting to get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other’s arguments and shooting down sexist crap.
Several studies also describe the backfire effect, I.e., people getting more entrenched in their position when confronted with opposing arguments. I doubt I can ever succeed where a decade+ of education system failed.
By yourself probably not. But a battalion of opposing arguments could possibly turn the tide. These guys have already demonstrated how susceptible they are to peer pressure, after all. And they’re not all online at once, so if they’re suddenly in the minority in their usually toxic forum…
So you need a coordinated effort of thousands of people who will get continuously moderated, banned or censored. OK, I admit that it’s possible, but I think I’d rather invest my time in other ways…
Well, if you have some to invest, could you see about getting “i.e.” into the default autocorrect database so we don’t have to go back and force it every time?
get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other’s arguments and shooting down sexist crap
Such behaviour is called “brigading” and it’s very much frowned upon.
r/conservative has already disproven that experiment, no matter how much opposition, they will spin a million excuses and point out how their echo chamber is being “brigaded” by bots or whatever
You’d be banned faster than trying to say “Tiananmen” on grad
I stumbled upon /r/theredpill(?) many years ago as a 17 year old girl who had never had a boyfriend, and it lead to me developing a severe distrust of men for several years after. I simply had no solid concept of this type of male sex culture, and it eventually lead me into the rabbit hole of the manosphere. I read through their new posts and “strategies” frequently, mostly out of a sort of morbid fascination, but also a desire to protect myself from men.
It made me believe that, as I grew into a young woman, I had to be careful, as men are terrible predators that only care about sex and the feeling of conquest. I started to understand that the way I perceive relationships might be vastly different from a certain male ideal. Ironically, what I wanted from a relationship was inspired by a quote written by Louis de Bernières, a man:
Love is a temporary madness, it erupts like volcanoes and then subsides. And when it subsides you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion. That is just being in love, which any fool can do. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident. Those that truly love have roots that grow towards each other underground, and, when all the pretty blossoms have fallen from their branches, they find that they are one tree and not two.
The only thing that undid those feelings was putting myself in the position to make friends with guys – “beta males”, specifically, made me feel a lot less threatened – and coming to understand that what I feared was a certain type of man, which did not represent every man. Now, I feel that I’m quite capable of navigating around toxic masculinity and keeping it out of my life, and have been with my partner for over a decade in a relationship that has developed roots.
r/FemaleDatingStrategy is/was a subreddit as well (seems inactive since 2023), it was basically the same as r/theredpill, just for women.
They have moved to a dedicated website now.
Weird that this is getting downvoted so heavily, but nobody is elaborating why, just downvoting it and moving on.
Because the sort of people who would downvote that, have learned to avoid trying to get into these conversations.
People would likely be downvoting because if we’re having a conversation about group A doing Z bad thing to group B, changing the conversation to “well group B does Y bad thing to group A” is generally seen as a not cool thing to do.
The problem for me now is, someone is going to come and try fighting me over how men can be, and are, victimized. I know that. Anyone with a brain knows that. Men need more support than they’re getting, also, and toxic masculinity (ironically, the same kind you can find in the Man-o-Sphere) is so, so mean to men, telling them to walk it off, to suck it up… I can’t tell you how much work I’ve had to do to help deprogram the fiance, who spent 20 years in the Army… But that wasn’t the discussion. It’s changing the topic.
You’re not allowed to talk about any problems women face, without someone saying, “but men have problems, too,” and then getting mad at you for being a man-hater if you don’t immediately drop the thing you were talking about to discuss the problems men face. Which is such a shame, because it solves neither problem, and just serves to piss people off.
So now that I’ve engaged you, and said the thing those people weren’t saying, someone (possibly multiple someones) are going to try and fight me. I’m going to try and ignore them, but I have ADHD, so we’ll see what happens.
I read through their new posts and “strategies” frequently, mostly out of a sort of morbid fascination, but also a desire to protect myself from men.
Sound advice, it’s useful to recognize the bullshit lingo & rhetoric that’s all a part of these idiotic schemes (see: “Pickup Artists”). I realized that one of my acquaintances had started slipping those catchphrases into convos years ago, and it caught me off guard. They hadn’t seemed like much of an asshole before, but it raised my hackles knowing that they weren’t just reviewing the media, but integrating it into their personality/beliefs without any sort of filter.
The red-pill/PUA industry preys on the weak-willed. They exploit vulnerable and weak-willed women for sex, and weak-willed men for money.
Honestly knowing what I know about guys, I wouldn’t date them either if I was a chick.
“Chick”?
Chick is slang for female.
We haven’t used that in a while
Nor female in the specific way used right here
(^posted kindly, Calipher!)
Yeah I’ma use chick and female as I see fit.
Bet we have more common ground than not!
e.g. what’s oriental?, prob a rug
“beta males”
Just keep in mind that the whole alpha/beta/etc taxonomy is a myth created by the misogynists.
I’m a big man with a gravelly voice and a shaved head. Bikers always give me the nod. I doubt if anyone would call me a beta (not that I care) but I’m fully bought into not being a shit towards women. So associate with whoever you want to, but don’t assume from appearance or behavior that only one certain type of man is less toxic. It’s not that simple.
It is really disturbing how there are entire online communities of men basically dedicated to teaching each other how to be abusers.
Any decent man who has spent enough time in locker rooms understands that ~30% of men are shitty people and of those, somewhere around half are probably violent.
Once you have a daughter or put youraself in womens shoes, you realize how terrifying those odds are for women trying to navigate this world.
What places do you go? My pool is super chill, I have seen all kind of uplifting moments. Maybe certain gyms have a selection bias? I don’t know.
I was thinking high school locker room when I read it. Cause it fit my experience there.
That just seems… Insane? My experience certainly doesn’t reflect this. But I never do averages based on a sample size of one.
~30% of people being shitty tracks with voting patterns
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This is why when my daughter announced she was gay, I was absolutely thrilled. She gets to go on this new journey with the part of humanity that 1) can’t cause a teen pregnancy and 2) much less abusive
Though, do be careful because there are abusive same-sex relationships and sometimes it’s even harder to get away because the people around you are telling you “but women can’t be abusers!”
Yeah, look at Facebook when there’s news about some 13+ male kid who got raped by a woman. You’ll get grown men saying how “lucky” that kid was, and that they wish the same had happened to them at his age.
But hey, other way around it’s also often shit like “look at her clothes, she was asking for it, can’t be surprised”.OMG I’ve witnessed so many abusive lesbian relationships. Women can be straight up psychos too, and are often a lot more calculated about it.
Statistically, lesbian relationships are far more likely to be abusive than hetero ones.
https://www.standffov.org/tdvam/abuse-in-lesbian-relationships/
I can’t be bothered to read the paper, but here are some evergreens that make this result hard to interpret:
- The sample includes women from all ages and boomer Karens would not report abuse
- On the other hand, being bi or lesbian has only been accepted by society since the last 10-20 years. Don’t believe me? Just watch some 90s sitcom like Friends.
- Being bi or lesbian still comes together with a special type of discrimination that a straight woman most likely will never experience; hence, straight women are potentially less sensitized to abuse / might have a different bar for what they consider abuse
- Putting together these very different groups of people with very different experiences on what is “normal” will result in them having a very different sensitivity towards what they would consider abuse
- In other words a young, bi/lesbian woman is probably more likely to report abuse than an old straight woman, an old lesbian woman who is just happy might never engage with researchers because of the past societal stigma that makes her keep her life private
Of course we don’t know any of that, but these psychological studies are difficult to conduct because in theory you’d have to account for these effects and in practice that might be impossible. But again, I haven’t bothered to read the whole thing just to prove a point.
Well, you’re really just throwing out what-ifs. But you happened to chance on one theory that some researchers think could partially explain the discrepancy:
Being bi or lesbian still comes together with a special type of discrimination that a straight woman most likely will never experience;
Being oppressed causes stress, stress causes lack of control. The idea is it’s a similar driver to why poorer couples have higher rates of abuse.
That’s probably not the SOLE cause, but it’s likely a factor.
I think it’s good that you’re trying to back your claims by sources / papers but your response tells me that you’re not trained (yet) in reading papers critically. Those are just some random question that came up from the top of my head and that any scientist would ask if someone were to present the findings of this study at a conference. This kind of rigor, to not blindly accept results but to critically evaluate them and poke holes in the arguments is what makes academia academia. I’m kind of surprised that you throw around papers and then get offended if people don’t blindly accept whatever you say, it’s kind of an interesting appeal to authority fallacy.
The numbers are pretty much a consensus among researchers. If you disagree, then the burden is on YOU to do a deep, critical analysis. I’m just reporting the conclusions of others, not doing any critical analysis. If those conclusions make you feel uncomfortable, maybe you should explore that feeling more. Although if you want to do a critical analysis, I’d welcome it.
Let me know how those mid terms went freshman! I know it’s exciting to be at university and all but you should learn to read the room
The study that statistic comes from is seriously methodologically flawed.
The statistic is that lesbians are more likely to have experienced abuse in previous heterosexual relationships. These are lifetime prevalence rates.
Or might just have reported more vs others, which idk but would be similar to e.g. sexual violence statistics in Scandinavian countries where officially they have much more harassment etc. than other countries, but this is just because women are more encouraged to actually go to the police and report it.
I also believe different countries count differently.
Some countries only count a victim once if it occurs in the same relationship. Some count by actual individual act of abuse.
These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.
I suspect there is some amount of survivorship bias type thing going on here. The type of men to hang out in such places are the type that enjoy it, and as such would never call out such behavior. The men that don’t enjoy such will tend not to come across such content in the first place.
So the first group just doesn’t care, the second doesn’t see it in the first place.
There is also probably some degree of the second group of men acknowledging that trying to call out such behavior won’t go very far. If you said “hey don’t share this woman’s pics” on 4chan, you’re going to immediately get laughed at, ignored, and probably called a bunch of slurs. And then they’ll keep on doing it because you told them not to. And that’s in no small part because these places are puedo anonymous.
Men can’t get away with such behavior as easily outside of the internet. Calling them out in real life is far more likely to go somewhere. However ther are caveats. Again comes the survivorship bias thing I mentioned. But worse, if done in real life and calling out that behavior backfires, it becomes a teaching moment. “Don’t tell other men to behave decent or they’ll ostracize and harass you”.
It’s a fucked up situation all around.
Let’s not forget that the people that call out said behavior get banned and their comments deleted… you can’t authentically claim nobody calls them out because you don’t actually know if anyone is or not… because ban.
I’ve called these assholes out on reddit to in the past. My reward was not only getting banned from their sub, but also getting auto-banned from a bunch of unrelated mainstream and progressive subs.
The idea that we can just go in and win an argument with these clowns is incredibly naive. I get the sense that the author didn’t actually try to do this herself. Social media is specifically built to push people into impenetrable bubbles because the algorithms intentionally favor combative tribalism, which drives up engagement.
But social media is only part of the problem. We have bigger issues related to how we think about men, and how we raise boys, that drive them into this mentality in the first place. Toxic masculinity is not new, it’s just been spread rapidly by technology.
Killer reply, friend.
An apropos of that. I’m Chinese/Viet half-and-half and was born in the UK. I have friends in the UK that are half-Chinese and half-British (white/caucasian). I had no idea that there were so many “half-Chinese” specific groups online.
Also, I can’t remember but there was some business about having a Chinese dad was better than a Chinese mom (I could have them switched). However, it’s mainly boys/men with this problem and they’re having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent. My friend tries to chime in to talk some sense into them but the self-victimization is really strong and he gets pushed out.
However, it’s mainly boys/men with this problem and they’re having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent.
Yeah that touches on a related problem, the fact that we’ve designed society to be anti-social.
- You can’t easily hang out with friends, because they’re half way across the city/state/etc.
- Nobody has consistent free time due to the enormous energy and time requirements for a financially stable life if you can even have one.
- There are no third places to meet people
- Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.
It’s incredibly hard to have a social life, and as a result people lash out. And they tend not to care about if the thing they lash out against is the correct thing to lash out against.
And it’s a self feeding cycle. Because men tend to lash out in the form of right wing populism, and any woman who knows anything will steer clear of that nonsense. So it feeds into itself.
In your case it’s self hatred racism, but it’s driven by the same forces.
- Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.
I’m glad you pointed this out. I realized how isolating cars are after moving to a walkable neighborhood. I’m convinced walkable neighborhoods foster community.
I’m living in a city in England that’s very near the 15-minute city ideal. I know my neighbors from at least a dozen nearby households on my street and adjoining streets, mainly from the nearby park, the pub, cafes and dogwalking. I’m very near the point of getting rid of the car, since I only use it about once a week and could use public transit for those occasions (it’s not perfect, but also not bad and slowly improving).
Asian Mom White Dad is more likely to be seen as fetishized, or in a monetary relationship, especially if the man is older than the woman. White Mom Asian Dad is seen as a sign the man is rich or success to pull a white woman, especially if she is younger.
There are asymmetries like that in marriages between members of many groups. For example, Arab Dad, Anglo Mom is far more common than vice-versa. Same with Black American Dad, Asian Mom. And yeah, how those relationships are viewed includes a large measure of internalized colonialist grovelling.
I think so to. I’ve seen a lot of pornography and never encountered a community like that. I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it. Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird. I had a couple dudes try to show me pictures their girlfriends sent them in the past but I did call them out for that.
I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it.
I’ve come across them. But only on 4chan, which there is fuckall anyone can do about, short of breaking into their site.
Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird.
I would hope the same of my friend group. I’ve tossed a lot of friendships in the trash because of their behavior. So those that remain are hopefully those that are actually good.
As a middle-aged man, I agree that there are some completely shitty men (loosely) out there. A real man should be compassionate, caring, protective when wanted, supportive when needed, and should never do the absolute scum things this poor woman experienced. This is on fathers (mostly) and mothers to teach their sons what it means to be respectful to everyone around them, not just women but men as well. Fathers need to model the behavior so their sons don’t grow up to be terrible humans. It is on parents to address online safety. It’s uncomfortable to do this but really, really needed. As far as the man sex culture, I’m not sure that is a fair statement. That would be like saying a woman sex culture. From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
Not always but the exceptions (or as close to exceptions as generalizations can ever get you anyway) are usually cases where the stereotypical behavior is entangled deeply with the very definition of the group, e.g. the vast majority of kids of rich parents can’t understand the struggles of being poor.
I understand what you’re saying, what I meant was every time i got to the point where I had a preconceived idea about a group of people, I was proven that I was wrong. There are always exceptions - that is my point.
When I was in HS if a girl wanted to show you some racy pics she’d just show you on HER phone.
I feel like I’m in a different universe to most people. Only chance I get to call anyone out for anything is littering and playing music loudly in public. Honestly feels like confirmation bias, but I’m sure I’m wrong.
I mean, if you went to 4chan you could presumably call out more, but it’d be kind of like yelling into a hurricane. Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
IRL bigots tend to hide their shit from non-target non-bigots.
Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
The cause of and consequences of The Man-o-Sphere in a nutshell. People get drawn in by the promise of gamified easy answers to relationships (via PUA community, evangelist trad-life influencers, and other self-help gurus). But it’s a bait-and-switch, with “advice” drifting from “how to find an easy relationship” into “why women are awful and you should hate them.”
If it makes you feel any better, I can ping you next time I encounter misogyny on Lemmy? It’s far less toxic than a lot of online places, but it’s definitely got corners where offensive takes get upvoted.
I just like that she calls out and lumps in 4chan with Reddit and Discord—because that’s really what’s it’s become now. I mean there are dicks lurking and active in any corner of the Internet but those platforms in particular are obviously mainstream enough or known to harbor all kinds… especially the kind she talks about.
This is what happens when you let your son’s role models be sociopathic pieces of shit like the Tate brothers, Fresh and Fit, and the assorted fucking losers on Youtube who still use “SJW” like it’s 2015.
Transitioning to male and having the amount of sexual harassment and catcalling I get in public reduced by like half (still look ambiguous) has been crazy. I was followed home by a car recently, they yelled at me to join them, I responded “what??” with my now deepened voice and they said “nevermind” and drove away. I think about that a lot and what may have happened if they’d done that a year earlier
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I don’t date either.
People are bastards and I like my peace. No woman is worth giving up what I’ve built.
No good woman would expect you to give up anything for her. I think we need to zoom out on this problem and recognize the issue is really just quality vs. non quality humans. Quality people are in rare supply. That’s why you have to hold on when you find one.
Relationships just don’t work like that. You can’t have your freedom AND be in a relationship.
I fear that you may not know what a good relationship is.
Are you going to judge every relationship in the world and let us all know which ones are good or not? Just curious how you find the time.
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Peddle your headcanon elsewhere, cultist, or keep to your containment board
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Pro tip - I’ll absolutely snitch on the guys I know that you probably shouldn’t date. Maybe you have a male friend that’s the same.
This just reminded me of the wonderful responses from these guys.
Well, that kind of supports my theory here.
It’s shitty that there’s not much you can do to actually intervene. Usually they don’t come straight out and admit they’re a misogynistic trashbag, it’s just a strong vibe.
My sister dated a sociopath. He was a master manipulator and cheated on and with every woman he wanted. This afgan muslim wad the biggest hypocrit I ever met.
He preyed on young women. Especiaally the vulnerable ones who suffered from loneliness, insecurities and/or depression. His charms did not work as well on me, because I’m not attracted to men. He did not like me and tried to ridicule me, cross my boundaries and set up my sister against me. Tried to slut shame me and implying I slept around in engineering. Trust me… no amount of axe bodyspray combats the overfilled lecturing room in summer. You could feel and taste the smell of men when entering. I have sensed every pheromone a man can produce, and none has a positive effect on me. And even if I did fuck every guy in engineering, what’s his point? He believed in polygamy. If he gets to fondle an theatre of tits, I should be able to ride every dick I want (with consent ofc).
My best friend was a guy. And the sociopathic pig would tell him misogynistic bs. About how to play multiple women at a once. My friend did not tell me anything about what the swine said. After all, bro’s before ho’s. And I was apparently the ho rather than the bro.
Anyhow. My warnings weren’t taken seriously, and 3 people I knew have had affairs with him. 2 of which were barely 19 and had a history of parental neglect and fear of abandonment.
Had my friend bothered to tell me, I may have had enough to convince my sister at least to cut ties with him. Instead, she become more and more miserable and doubtful of herself. Trying to break it off, but not being assertive enough to enforce it. Thank our crappy mother for that.
The pig also had a lawsuit against him for sexual msiconduct. He was a taxi driver and an incident had taken place where two women left his cab and hit the front of his car with a heel. Leaving a dent. Or so the story went. His brother lost his medical licience because there were too many sexual harassment claims against him in his dental practice. His family is known for misogyny. Fucker lied about his name because of it and refused to introduce her to his family. Reason he gave had to do with his muslim backround, but in reality, he was already engaged to another woman.
I hope she is okay. I doubt it though.
My sister recovered from the ordeal. Woman no. 3 cut ties with us and we don’t know what happened. We assume she did so out if shame. Which isn’t surprising because they all had an affair with the same guy. Fucking dumbass. Woman no. 2 was the most vulnerable, but is doing well now. Being disgusted with herself for how she acted.
I am no longer friends with the guy I used to hang out with almost daily. After he kept saying misogynistic bs and telling me he could rape me while I wouldn’t be able to do defend myself.
Men cannot be counted on for snitching, even if someone’s safety depends on it.
If you imagine some kind of multi year “relationship education” instead of just sex ed where all kids at ~14 learn about pathological psychology and all the ways people can manipulate you or fuck you over I imagine it would be far less off a problem.
It’s insane to me that the greatest threat to women is dating men. Who the hell is raising these guys? Even in my worst days I never blamed women for my dating problems - I blamed myself. Therapy helped with that problem though. But the motives of mass misogyny are just opaque to me. Sort your shit guys, don’t be a bastard.
The internet is raising them. They aren’t going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior. They aren’t going outside and trying this shit on women who will reject their bad behaviors. Or worse running to legal trouble for harassing or assaulting women. Whereby it used to be the guy would self reflect and realize he’s doing it wrong.
The internet is telling them stories about how these behaviors are what the “alpha” males are doing to successfully get all the women. What is the bullshit stat? Like 1% of top men get 99% of women or some stupid shit.
The internet lies to them, painting a dark twisted world. And then these guys go out to the real world to treat women in the way they think the world is some kind of dark world. They get extreme negative experiences. Which to them proves that the internet was right about everything.
They aren’t going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior.
Expecting men to beat the shit out of people doing the “wrong” things is also a really big problem and isn’t a solution either.
I remember in the late 80s when i was really young hearing about gay bashing as if it was a perfectly okay thing to group to and go do.
I remember people talking about Freddie Mercury coming out as gay and not feeling comfortable asking why that is a problem for fear of being targeted myself.
I don’t have any answers
beat the shit out of people
It’s not literal. You seriously don’t know what social conditioning is???
gay bashing
I have no clue how you derived homophobia from this.
This is either a troll or poor reading comprehension.
edit: I just saw your other replies. You’re being deliberately obtuse to derail the thread.
Make people feel bad about who they are through intimidation and violence. It’s not okay unless you are “over if there good ones”
“It’s not literal!”
Cool cool cool
Meanwhile concentration camps are in vogue
A rapist and convicted felon is the POTUS
And Andrew Tate is the new young mans hero.
Yeah im so unhinged
In the 80s and 90s we always called our friends gay but to me it was just friendly ribbing.
One ex friend we did beat the fuck out of for hitting his girlfriend.
This is unhinged and nonsensical, either you have poor English reading comprehension or this is a troll post. I’ll let mods decide.
Care to explain how I’m unhinged?
Speaking of poor reading skills, im specifically referring to physical abuse as a form or deterrent.
Maybe you havent experienced physical abuse, but i have.
I felt like I understood your original post, so I hope you’re okay if I try to bridge the misunderstandings? If at any point I misunderstood, let me know.
They aren’t going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior.
Expecting men to beat the shit out of people doing the “wrong” things is also a really big problem and isn’t a solution either.
I feel like this boils down to: having men use physical violence to coerce other men into “proper” behavior isn’t the solution. The scare-quotes around “wrong” imply the term being potentially misused.
I remember in the late 80s when i was really young hearing about gay bashing as if it was a perfectly okay thing to group to and go do.
You note that groups used violence against gay people in the 80s, and that it was considered acceptable. I read this and the next sentence as being an example, provided to support your first sentence.
I remember people talking about Freddie Mercury coming out as gay and not feeling comfortable asking why that is a problem for fear of being targeted myself.
The fear of violence was such a severe deterrent, that even questioning why being gay was “wrong” could have led the group to assume you were gay and thus become violent against you.
I don’t have any answers
Although you don’t believe in corporal punishment, you don’t know what the answer would be. (Which is totally fair, IMO.)
Is that the gist of what you meant?
If so, I suspect people lost track of your point around the term “gay bashing.” Most people these days probably associate that term with someone speaking poorly of gay people, which sucks, but is relatively tame compared to what I thought you meant - which was, groups that went around literally bashing, as in physically attacking, gay people. (Which was, and still is in some places, an absolutely real thing.) It’s possible that this misunderstanding derailed the rest of your comment, leading readers away from your point.
Thank you, that’s a pretty fair assessment.
This was what I took away from his comment as well. His personal experience with physical abuse likely lead him to interpret “slapped upside the head” in a more visceral way than I think OP intended. The jump in ‘rhetorical spiciness’ tends to prime the reader a certain way. He expressed his doubt and confusion but only after bringing up a seemingly unrelated (and potentially bigoted) example.
Nobody understands a thing you’re saying, I think you don’t grasp the concept of “context” like so many internet drones. I’m blocking you now, have a good day
Lemmy is such a friendly place…
I say let it stand as a testament. Incels bring out the big guns when you get too close to reality. I’ve noticed this pattern over the years.
The propaganda is something to behold. This is the kind of thing young men are being bombarded with.
I say let it stand as a testament.
I know you’re joking around, but I’ll take advantage of the moment to rant on a tangent for a bit. I legit saw this attitude spreading through the moderator space on reddit a decade ago, as they started getting influenced by users to let slide more and more horrible takes so that “the community can judge for themselves” as tender, shut-in lads and lasses who were trying to manage our largest discussion forums without pay were suddenly being bombarded from all sides by people trying to subvert the subreddits and control them for their own agendas.
And largely, it worked. Many, many times I’ve seen subreddits and forums on other sites fall because the mods got compromised, the other mods got too burned out or emotional to keep doing their tasks, and as a result the conversations started allowing more and more incel-bait, tired tropes of persecution and misogyny, foulmouthed, delusional teenagers who have never left their houses suddenly making profound statements about the state of gender dynamics, and a whole ARMY of foreigners pretending to be normal Americans or Europeans on both sides of every argument, just screaming their nonsense louder and louder until the only users left were the ones who agreed with the delusion. I wish people understood that some of the most famous horrible subreddits and sites started as jokes and were gradually co-opted and hijacked to become unironic hate-spaces.
This was the plan all across the internet and it worked. We are all so tired of every argument and issue that most people don’t engage anymore. We don’t even try to correct anyone because we assume either other users know better, or will sort it out for us, or who cares anyway, what’s even real? Just tune out, keep scrolling.
So now I say, no. We need to be far less tolerant of intolerance, we need to burn them out of their nests and dens. Reddit didn’t go nearly far enough with banning the incel subs, they should have banned incel ideology, they should have banned redpill rhetoric entirely. I once would have balked at that kind of “censorship” but I’m now watching my nation dissolve under the stupidest movement ever created and I’m somewhere between shaking with rage and shaking with exhaustion.
Point taken. Looks like the guy is standing pat with his full blown alternate reality narraive. And he’s still gotten more upvotes inspite of being so unabashedly in bad faith.
Ah well I wish mods would have nuked the whole comment chain.
Redpill, incel, gender-normative bullshit is violence. It seeks to hurt men by forcing them into the mold of “masculinity” (and defines that masculinity, in some places, in a very toxic fashion) and we all know how it hurts women.
It needs to be fought back, and as furiously as fascism.
This sentiment is why i commented. It does need to be pushed back against. Thank you
It’s insane to me that the greatest threat to women is dating men
Yet men are the leading cause of death for women. You’re correct, it is absolutely insane, but until those types of men can sort out their fragile masculinity problems here we are unfortunately.
What? That’s not correct at all. The leading cause of death for women is heart disease, which accounts for approximately one in three female deaths each year. “Men” or any derivatives thereof on most statistical lists are below even common mosquitoes (malaria) as causes of death. A woman is more likely to be killed by their own kidneys than by a man.
Don’t spread needless culture war scare bullshit.
Source: The goddamn CDC.
I know a lot of guys in the comments are saying they don’t see it so they don’t have the opportunity to call it out. And some of those guys are making good points! These communities probably don’t interact much with men that treat women with respect.
But I also wonder how much of that stuff happens and they don’t realize it’s harmful to women. Obviously sharing photos isn’t okay so that’s an easy one to call out.
It’s not a man’s fault that he doesn’t see it, necessarily. You don’t have the same experiences as women and it just doesn’t occur to you as often. Women are on alert 24/7.
Kinda like that thing about the number of guys who feel safe walking to their car at night vs the number of women. (I know some men are anxious in that scenario too, but nearly ALL women are.)
When I was an elementary school aged kid, I was afraid to play outside at my grandmas house because a man drove by yelling cat calls. This actually happened a couple times growing up.
At 14, a random man followed me home from school.
In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape. But really that’s just the number reported.
Every single woman I know has experienced sexual assault or rape of some kind. (I didn’t ask my coworkers to be fair).
That’s bonkers.
But I do appreciate those of you that are trying to be better! The comments here are reassuring and give hope for the future!
There are some cultures that are so female unfriendly it isn’t funny, some of that has to do with religion and some of that doesn’t. That’s also one of the harsh realities of combating things like this because some people actually grew up and learn that women and worth less or some other kind of bullshit.
The other side of this coin is that in books and articles like this and heck even your comment only women get victimized or men get targeted. Yes statistically men are way more the cause of (sexual) abuse, misogyny or whatnot. Same with that women have it statistically worse partially because of some culture and partially because some people are just dicks and/or sick in their head. Some men (especially gay’s, minorities and insecure people) get (sexually_ abused by women or other men, but that generally flies under the radar way more since they are often not believed.
That’s why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line. Let’s do better together!
You’re absolutely right about sexual assault against men. I thought what Terry Crews did was heroic. Even when he didn’t want to speak out, he knew he needed to be a leader and he spoke up.
I didn’t leave it out from a lack of concern. I was just making a point by how unsafe women feel in every aspect of their lives, not just occasionally in a Reddit forum.
Trans people, especially black trans people, are targeted in at a whole other level and are often ignored in reporting. They don’t deserve that.
Crazy that we all can’t just respect each others right to live.
It’s not just about how you’re treated by these communities, it’s how they work mechanically.
For example, on reddit if you engage with these people, you will not only be deleted and banned from their sub, you will also be auto-banned by a bunch of opposing subs. You get one chance to participate before you need to circumvent the platform by creating a new account.
It’s simply not feasible to engage with them online in this way, and that’s ignoring the time and emotional energy you need to spend to do it in the first place.
The issue needs to addressed at a societal level. As a society we value all the wrong things in men and few of the right things. A lot of these guys end up in these communities specifically because they feel they can’t meet the ludicrous standards created for them, and place the blame solely on women instead of our wider culture.
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Choosing to fuck a piece of shit, when you know they’re a piece of shit, doesn’t make you a victim, and I’m not entertaining this pity party claim that everyone fucking a MAGA asshole is in an abusive relationship. They aren’t. But I feel for the ones who are.
Also you’re putting words in my mouth. I never said these men were “misunderstood”. I explained how they got there in the first place. Their beliefs and actions are clear as day. I do not sympathize with them more than abused women. But you don’t want to engage my actual points, you want to set up a straw man and pull your self-righteous, self-pitying manipulative bullshit instead, which is exactly what I knew would happen.
If you dine with a Nazi, you are a Nazi. If you befriend a Nazi, you are a Nazi. If you fuck a Nazi, you are a Nazi.
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In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape.
And that was shown to be complete horseshit arrived at by defining ‘sexual assault or rape’ in a survey more broadly than any reasonable person ever would.
It’s similar to the survey in the 80s all the ACABers cite to claim 40% of cops are domestically violence–in that survey, even if a voice was raised one time in the past six months, and it was the cop’s spouse yelling at the cop, that survey dumped the relationship in the domestic violence bucket. Big surprise that 40% figure has never been replicated since, lol.
One example: at the end of a first date that you weren’t really feeling, the guy goes in for a kiss and you decline? Guess what, even if he completely accepts the denial and the date ends without incident, that went in the “sexual assault” bucket, regardless of whether the woman herself felt anything bad had happened.
Ever had sex while less than stone cold sober (keep in mind the entirety of the surveyed considered to arrive at this figure were college students)? Survey says you were raped. Doesn’t matter if you were just tipsy, doesn’t matter if you and your partner were equally drunk, doesn’t matter whether you think you were raped/assaulted, nope, we decided you were.
Stuff like that is the only way to get to a figure so absurd.
First of all, the Washington Examiner is a right-wing news outlet. They have a bias in there reporting and it shows.
Second, the number of sexual assaults on campus is likely significantly higher according to more recent information.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/04/news-campus-sexual-assault
Last, if someone assaults a person who doesn’t believe they were assaulted, does that count?
Ever had sex while less than stone cold sober (keep in mind the entirety of the surveyed considered to arrive at this figure were college students)? Survey says you were raped. Doesn’t matter if you were just tipsy, doesn’t matter if you and your partner were equally drunk, doesn’t matter whether you think you were raped/assaulted, nope, we decided you were.
What is that person had passed out drunk and doesn’t remember it? Is it rape now? What if that person has a learning disability or communication disability? Do you think that’s rape?
My point here is that something can be true if the person isn’t aware of it. I presume people are also more likely to say they’ve received unwanted physical interactions than to say they were raped.
You know, society used to think you couldn’t rape your wife either.
Why are you proposing scenarios other than the ones I used to specifically exemplify the fact that the measure of sexual assault/rape was massively overinflated?
Do you think “but what about the situations that are rape” is a counterargument to that? My point is that they counted a lot MORE in ADDITION to those legitimate scenarios, and that’s why such a scary number was arrived at.
The bottom line fact is, no survey etc. that doesn’t massively dilute the definitions of those terms has ever or will ever reach a conclusion like “1 in 5 female college students have been sexually assaulted or raped”. There is a reason that figure isn’t being thrown around anymore these days–it’s been debunked thoroughly.
