They are both wrong.
The correct way is to argue passionately that your country has committed the MOST war crimes/genocides/human rights violations. Ya know, bragging rights.
🤝 our governments are committing war crimes
Idk why there’s such a pissing match in this post. Like honestly. Both our governments are shit. Why is this even a debate as to whose government is committing war crimes more? Your comment is the best comment here by far.
Solidarity amongst the working class!
I might have laughed out loud on a silent bus. But worth it
Name 5 Chinese war crimes,I’ll wait 😎
- Dragging anchor in the baltic and cutting cables.
- Ramming Philippine ships and assaulting sailors.
- Genocide of the Uyghers.
- Tibet genocide.
- The rampant illegal fishing in every other countries coastline.
#4 is like claiming the Union committed genocide against enslaved people in the Confederacy by abolishing slavery
Here’s 5 actual war crimes
- My Lai massacre Vietnam - America
- Iraq invasion (there’s thousands within this one including Abu ghraib) -america/nato 3- dressing up as medical personnel and massacring a refugee camp to save 1 person in gaza- Israel and America 4- a host of lesser known but many technical war crimes in Afghanistan like bombing undefended villages and towns https://www.culawreview.org/journal/double-standards-in-international-law-did-the-us-get-away-with-war-crimes-in-afghanistan 5- raping children and murdering their family. This is American tactic in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria with many documented cases
What do you chuds not understand about “two countries are committing war crimes”? You asked about China and got an answer about China. You’re trying to convince us who’s the second worst empire.
I think you’re missing the WAR part of the WAR CRIME. I thought you’d realise by now, but you’re really digging yourself a hole. Funny thing is there are wars you could have mentioned and war crimes. The point of original comment was to draw our those without any knowledge like you 😜
I’m explaining to you why this comparison is a poor argument, not volunteering to dance around various different arguments all day.
1 isn’t a war crimes lmao 2 isn’t a war crime 3. Isn’t a war crime nor is there proof. Literal unbacked western propaganda, wanna know what is backed? Gaza, By the west and Sudan genocide by America via UAE 4. Perhaps, I would need to do more research on this one, but didn’t you got 3 wrong, I wouldn’t be surprised if your wrong again 5. Not a war crime
Crimes against humanity are war crimes. Looting is a war crime. Invasion of a sovereign nation is an act of war. Stealing their resources is looting. Genocide is a crime against humanity and Tibet and the Uyghers are in one.
Wolf warriors that bury their head in the sand will suffocate under the lies.
China has been real bad.
Uyghers are in one
There is no post-2021 evidence whatsoever of human right abuses of any sort in the Xinjiang province against Uyghur people. You can try to find stuff but you won’t find anything, I dare you to send me a single article that has an actual reference to actual evidence of post-2021 human right abuses. Send me an article and point to the actual reference within the article. I dare you.
Uyghur Genocide and Concentrated Reeducation Camps in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People’s Republic of China https://search.app/fyMhR137LTgqVkEJ8
Here is a report from the office of national intelligence last November listing all the data for the genocide.
lmfao “post-2021” moving the goalposts as if that matters or changes anything. and this other user claiming it can’t be a war crime because there’s no war. literally L. M. F. A. O.
i’m an american, i’m a little dull to the ol “it isn’t technically a war bc we didn’t declare war >:2” shit
fuck america, fuck china, fuck authority.
you and this other guy are tankie trash, full stop.
you and this other guy are tankie trash, full stop. So does then make you fascist trash? This isn’t the cold war and I was born in Scotland not Yugoslavia No buddy were just a bit brighter then you. There’s 3 tiers of thinking. 'one side is wholly bad" Tier 2 “both sides are bad” Tier 3" both sides are bad but I want to look deeper into the complexites and nuances which made me realise, one side is infinitely worse" You’re stuck on tier 2. i’m an american, i’m a little dull to the ol “it isn’t technically a war bc we didn’t declare war >:2” shit
You said it yourself you are pretty dull as you don’t know what a freaking war crime Vs a crime against humanity is. A crime against humanity would be like slaving your citizens… Like how it’s codified in American prison laws
“Anyone who isn’t a ML is a fascist” is effectivepy what you said. Classic tankie red-fash bullshit. You bastards can only think in black or white, no nuance, no grey area, so rooted in the belief that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. You’re so blinded by your hatred of American and western fascism you are blind to the rest of the world’s descent into fascism. We live in a world ruled by fascism and imperialism, conflicts are just two fascist powers duking it out. China is just fascism with red aesthetics and America is just fascism with blue aesthetics.
Here is the definition. A crime against humanity is a war crime.
The International Criminal Court (ICC) | International peace and security | Government.nl https://search.app/iKiJrEFeMYP2nzF76
Crimes against humanity aren’t war crimes. You’re reading comprehension is lacking my friend. The war in war crimes means warfare.
Speaking of genocides. You have mentioned two. Most genocides on the planet are actively done by America and it’s allies or it supplies the weapons and silences the media.
Considering China having 5 times the population of america. Id say china has been very good comparatively on the world. Also nothing to say how 4 of 5 of your war crimes weren’t at all war crimes??
Yes they are. Source: The International Criminal Court (ICC) | International peace and security | Government.nl https://search.app/iKiJrEFeMYP2nzF76
Crimes against humanity is as good as a warcrime buddy boy
One side is right tho
Na both are right. All countries have blood on their hands. It’s honestly not a good comparison.
sure the united states has comparable blood on their hands as China 😂 aight buddy
Boring.
What war is China supposedly involved in?
The inner battle of not issuing a final warning, duh. Truly a vicious war.
you see, these 2 are equally as bad because a german that doesn’t speak a word of mandarin and has not ever visited china provided me a satellite picture of a big building and wrote a fan fiction about it.
Yeah like wtf is this lmao, apparently “war crime” is now when bad country does bad thing
Well Americans are certainly telling Chinese users that their government is committing warcrimes like the meme says
In which war lol?
Exactly lol
Genocide?
Yeah, that is indeed one of the grab bag of accusations that Americans are hurling.
palestine?
No bro, the real genocide, the one that doesn’t have a single piece of photographic or video evidence, where no probes have found any evidence, and where the allegedly victimized population has seen their standards of living rise enormously and the previously ubiquitous violence has all but stopped.
If the palestine genocide were a real one surely Blinken would have condemned it like he did the one they
fabricatedsaw in Xinjiang.
Uyghur genocide
Saddam’s WMDs
Sandinistas killing babies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiEhITvJuyE
You can watch this and look for any evidence of your claim. You wont see any. Or you can take my word for it when i tell you i literally spoke to a uyghur from Xinjiang on XHS the other day and they were chillin enjoying life.
Either way maybe dont just take the word of whatever Western Media mouthpieces tell you?
C’mon bro we can’t seriously be debating if the Uyghur genocide is real. Obviously China isn’t all evil but this is a well documented genocide.
And bro why you pulling the “I’m not racist, I have a black friend” card. Shut yo bitch ass up
All vloggers are paid by CPC, every Chinese you meet on the internet are bots. /s
? The UN has thoroughly investigated and concluded that the ‘Uyghur genocide’ is a fabrication https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ohchr-assessment-human-rights-concerns-xinjiang-uyghur-autonomous-region I suggest you read it rather than have it filtered through biased western media orgs, and I trust their investigation a lot more than those from countries like the US that have a vested interest in painting China as negatively as possible
Even if the propaganda were true it would constitute a crime against humanity not a war crime, unless you consider the ETIM terror campaign a ‘war’
Chinese shills don’t even read their own posts.
Fucking disappointing to see lemmy to be taken over by ccp sympathizers.
Next people here are gonna explain how students in Tiananmen Massacre deserved what they got.
Cya lemmy it was nice for a time!
Oh noes, the ebil gommunist seeseepee tankies!!!1!
How dare they stand for the truth that even the Arab League didn’t find China commiting genocide or oppressing the people of Xinjiang and disproving the now abandoned false narrative about Tiananmen Square.
No no no, your views should thoroughly align with the US state department. CHINA IS EBIL!!!
LOL when a liberal doesnt know that lemmy was literally created by a group pf “eeviill tankies” in the first place.
Bye, won’t be missed
A fabrication? Did you even read that pdf? I quote:
Serious human rights violations have been committed in XUAR in the context of the Government’s application of counter-terrorism and counter-“extremism” strategies. The implementation of these strategies, and associated policies in XUAR has led to interlocking patterns of severe and undue restrictions on a wide range of human rights. These patterns of restrictions are characterized by a discriminatory component, as the underlying acts often directly or indirectly affect Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim communities.
So, no mention of genocide?
Sure, it’s all rosy. :)
Yep, no war crimes 👍
It’s true, your screenshot shows no war crimes. You failed at sarcasm.
That has no mention of a war that has China as a belligerent, can you specify which war you think these crimes are occurring as part of? and specify them?
Yeah, not really comparable when it comes to war crimes. If someone wanted to conflate a topic that makes both countries look similarly bad in an honest light, it would be the treatment of ethnic minorities.
the treatment of ethnic minorities
You mean the US having the highest prison population in the world, to the point of 1 in 5 black men over 30 having been to jail at some point of their lives?
That would not be an honest light. China actually takes their affirmative action seriously and not just pays lip service to it while continuing to enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai’i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
The claims of China’s abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn’t understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
People still on that “China genocide” bs are about as ridiculous as people claiming Iraq had WMDs into the Obama years. It’s a level of gullibility so big that it has to be voluntary.
enact genocidal policies like the US still does on the indigenous peoples of the mainland and occupied Hawai’i which has been gentrified and settled to the point of being unlivable for most of the locals.
And the same has been said about tibet, inner Mongolia, and xinjiang. I mean you can look at Chinas own census data and see that han Chinese are migrating to cities in xinjiang, displacing ethnic minorities to move away from their cultural cities.
The claims of China’s abuse of ethnic minorities are a scam espoused by the same people profitting off the genocide in Palestine. Anybody who takes the evidence seriously instead of treating accusations as trustworthy because of the volume of them doesn’t understand (or chooses to ignore) how the US propaganda machine has always worked.
You are conflating the accusations of genocide in one region with the accusations of ethnic discrimination. Even in that grey zone article it is conflating the study from some weird neocon group with all investigations into ethnic discrimination in China.
Han chauvinism is an established concept that even Mao took aims to curtail. Something they are still combating considering there has only been one ethnic minority to serve in the central committee in the last 35 years.
An actual criticism that I have about Xi is that he is a bit culturally conservative. The belt and road initiative utilized a lot of han centric language and the current central committee is notably the first committee that has no women serving on it in the last +25 years.
The worst accusation you could make about China’s alleged warcrimes are how neutral they are in regards to Israel. They also sell guns to both sides of the Kashmir conflict, which isn’t great. They have sold guns to Israel in the past as commerce, but that’s a far cry from the west simply giving Israel weapons and intelligence for free.
Whereas the USA invades a new country on average every 1.5 years and has over 800 overseas military bases. China hasn’t had an active overseas military conflict since the Vietnam war. This isn’t a comparison at all.
Hasn’t China also sold drones to Indonesia for use in West Papua? I think that might’ve stopped, though, but I’m not sure.
One of the most frustrating things that I see so commonly, is that when there is criticism of the Chinese government, it is almost always redirected into whataboutism about the US.
I’m not from the US or China. My views are that both these governments are terrible, though I admittedly am not very informed about China. But these kinds of non-responses do not help.
Edit: I do realise that this meme itself sort of sets up the comparison, but I just wish we could analyse the actions of each government independently, without making excuses for one by pointing fingers at the other.
My views are that both these governments are terrible, though I admittedly am not very informed about China
Rofl. Lmao even
Please don’t tell me that you’re from Australia 😂
“I’m not informed, but they’re terrible!” Is a pretty arrogant take.
It will get funny when the “im not american” @aussie.zone user turns out to be Australian.
I’m sorry, is it discouraged to be self aware? It is very common to have preconceived ideas about things based on media/whatever, however I am trying to be self aware enough to realise that this view isn’t based on very much research, which is why I’m trying to re-evaluate it.
Surely it is far more arrogant to assume I have no ill-informed views, and that I have never been affected by misinformation.
You’re arguing with tankies. You are attacking China in their eyes. You are fighting a losing battle because you cannot convince them China has major faults and blemishes and systemic issues like the US.
I don’t think that’s a useful framing. The central thesis of most “tankies” is that the version of the PRC that exists in the minds of Westerners and the version that exists in reality are fundamentally different, and that this is largely due to a concerted effort by western countries to depict China in a negative light exclusively. That does not mean that there aren’t serious problems with the PRC, or that it doesn’t have a long way to go, but admitting to having a negative stance without doing much investigation means that they should investigate, rather than contribute to a miasma of other ill-informed takes.
I think calling situation in Xinjiang as a war crime was sloppy…
Should said genocide and the meme stands
there are like a billion youtube videos of people traveling in Xinjiang and finding nothing wrong.
I didn’t know there were people still seriously trying to sell the “Uyghur genocide” propaganda nonsense. Mainstream media gave up on it years ago, and Israel showing what genocide actually looks like mostly put the last nail in the casket for all but the most committed sinophobes.
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If it is definitely one, you might be able to post incontrovertible evidence of it, and not just an ASPI report linking to Adrian Zenz or a satellite photo of a building they pinky swear is a death camp?
adrian zenz blurry satellite photos of random buildings have more weight than tourists filming their experiences in Xinjiang for these dummies.
China has paid a hundred trillion xibucks for thousands upon thousands of travel bloggers to film life around Xinjiang, plus hundreds of thousands of paid actors (in the enormous autonomous region where a genocide is taking place at the same time).
I can’t believe you sheeple can’t see the obvious truth.
incontrovertible
The issue is, genocide deniers are very keen to dispute any readily available facts - Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Holodomor, etc deniers, along with flat earthers and other far-fetched conspiracy believers are willing to reject swathes of evidence and released documents that show intent and execution; I could link you interviews with Uyghurs saying they were forceably steralised or reeducated from respected sources (and am happy to) but it seems like you’ve already made your mind up so will just be selectively blind when reading them
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A simple “no” would have sufficed.
Gaza, one of the poorest, most heavily policed and militarily surveiled regions in the world, managed to have incontrovertible truth of genocidal intent from day one. Years of slander from the MIC (profiting off that same genocide) about Xinjiang, a place anyone can go visit right now, which has had multiple outside probes, not a single piece of evidence.
Thanks for proving my point that you reject even being offered evidence because you don’t want to see something that challenges your worldview.
I could’ve spent time compiling a list, but you’d either ignore it or say it’s a biased source because it’s non-chinese or something.
I’m going to go on my grad account just to downvote this trash
Hard to commit warcrimes when you don’t participate in war.
This meme sucks.
Thanks
Which country allows their citizens to openly speak about and protest said war crimes?
Not America & not China, this isn’t a competition
Andrew Wimmer was handcuffed and taken to jail on January 22, 2003 because he refused to protest in a ““designated protest zone”” that was out of sight of the President as well as local and national TV news cameras.
A woman, armed with a ““We Love You Bush”” sign showed up at the same corner shortly after Wimmer’s arrest. Wimmer asked the police if they were going to arrest her if she didn’t move and they said, ““no.”” The police also allegedly blocked the national press camera crews and an AP reporter from approaching the protest zone to do reporting.
https://www.aclu.org/documents/dissent-forced-be-out-sight-and-out-mind
That’s a far cry from how china suppresses protests. And really a small individual example. Overall there’s a clear freedom of expression and civil protest in the US. The same absolutely cannot be said about china.
I love how people just say this. Like you know lol
Can you draw the chinese leader as Winnie the pooh in China without repercussions? I can do it to my leader where I’m at.
Can you find me a person in China who will tell you that’s true or did you pick that up from memes of people posting Winnie the Pooh xi?
You learned in highschool what a reliable source is and “cultural osmosis” is not a valid source.
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Americans have jesters privilege. We can say anything we want as long as it doesn’t matter. As soon as the government thinks it might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.
This is horse shit. There are examples of protests being countered (e.g. When Trump gassed protesters and clergy members to hold a Bible up upside down at their church), but these examples are rare and those people weren’t actually “silenced”. They told everyone about what happened.
Americans have freedom of speech protected by our constitution. China, on the other hand, has actual laws dictating against many forms of speech.
For example… “The PRC bans certain content regarding independence movements in Tibet and Taiwan, the religious movement Falun Gong, democracy, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, Maoism, corruption, police brutality, anarchism, gossip, disparity of wealth, and food safety scandals.”
As soon as
the governmentoligarchs who own the media thinksit might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.But it’s also worth noting that the Chinese don’t even have that. At least in America, you can get your message out by getting a billionaire to agree with you.
I thought the Jester’s job was to say stuff that DID matter, but he presented it in a way where the king could save face.
Looking it up, it’s unclear how much jesters were respected for having political competency that kings and court would listen to and how much they were were entertainers who were permitted much greater liberty with content because he was non-threatening and affected nothing.
Facts right…
I would posit you can say anything but the truth that hurts profits or US interests otherwise…
Like calling out Israel 🤡
you can call them out but you can’t stop your taxes going to them 🤡
Did they bring in some tanks as well? Or if they did are we allowed to talk about it?
Can you post pictures of a tank event in the 80s in China without censoring? Can you talk about these protests ?
China, but also the PRC hasn’t been in a war in like 50+ years. Meanwhile the US killed a million innocent people in Iraq, and goes after whistleblowers like Assange, Snowden, and Manning for speaking out about its war crimes. And the Obama administration prosecuted a record number of whistleblowers, and had a zero tolerance policy towards them.
Try to talk about the Tiananmen Square in China, Monsieur Jacques I.
“haha if you say tiananmen square in a league of legends match the Chinese get banned” is your source
What about the Tiananmen square massacre?
- Notes for the 30th anniversary of the Tiannment incident.
- It wasn’t a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
- Latin American diplomat eyewitness account of June 3-4 events on Tiananmen Square wikileaks (PDF)
- There was a Spanish television crew that covered the entire Tiananmen Square incident as it unfolded. Their footage showed that there was no massacre. A few things worthy of pointing out - Liu Xiaobo and Hou Dejian, both student leaders of the Tiananmen protests, have been recorded as saying that they never saw anyone killed at the protests.
- The protest movement followed the line of “color revolutions”, in which the US tried to destabilize and create counter-revolutions in eastern Europe and Latin America after the fall of the USSR. The strategy was to stir division within and without, by inundating the media with news of massacres of “peaceful”, pro-capitalist / market reformers.
- The defeat of a counter revolution in China.
- Interviews from some of the student leaders.
- An account from a resident.
- Tiananmen Square “Massacre”, A Propaganda Hoax.
- The truth about the Tiananmen square protests
But the tank
Checkmate commies
That vimeo link of the spanish tv crew coverage doesn’t seem to work for me. Do you happen to have any mirror of it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMtopY3pcZs
@[email protected], update your link for #4.
Done, thx.
Well the US doesn’t. China is hard to say because it’s not constantly at war
Like, the Netherlands or something maybe?
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And the top comment on that video is defending the police, fascism has it’s hold in many places
The removed of fascism is always in heat
lol .ml censoring your word here is super apropos
“Fascism is when you have to infer a word from context to avoid being called slurs” (Albert Fascism, creator of the .ml TLD
Dang Albert fascism and his choice selection of english
Thanks for posting, didn’t know about that!
To be fair I mainly wanted to jokingly tell the commentator that both china and the us are guilty of this, so I just mentioned a third country that I thought was decent. Thanks for educating :)
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¿Porque no los dos?
It is not either or, folks. Both are bad for similar and different ways!
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Finally, a sane take
