I don’t expect this to play particularly well here, and maybe I’m just being conspiratorial, but here goes:
I banned [email protected] from [email protected] earlier today- he literally posted a matt walsh youtube link and was being otherwise transphobic in a space where that gets you banned. (link)
one of jordanlunds removed comments w/ matt walsh video:
spoiler
the reason I put down was ‘trolling about neopronouns’ I stand by that, it was violating instance rules and was unacceptable behavior from a moderator of another instance.
Shortly after that I got banned from [email protected] for ‘trolling’. To be clear, jordanlund does not moderate [email protected], but the timing struck me as an odd coincidence.
The .world thread in question (link)
I was expressing my actual opinion/position on this, if anything the post I was replying to should be considered a rule 1 violation implying leftists are russian/under russian sway:
spoiler
The removed comments that I was banned (permanent) for were just me being earnest about my position, which you’re welcome to disagree with.
I don’t view protecting my rights as something worth sacrificing other people for, even if they’re on the other side of the planet. You can be mad at me or hate me for that, but I’m not trolling.
People replying felt it was reasonable to call me an idiot for example, yet another example of selective moderation. on .world.
I don’t have any conclusive proof that my banning Jordanlund and then getting banned are related other than the suspicious timing, I welcome clarification.
Anyway in the interest of neutrality and transparency I submit both my ban and jordanlunds for review.
I’m beginning to think that .world should be avoided. Not defederated, but mirror subs should be started on other instances and everyone who doesn’t like this attitude / activity should deliberately boycott .world subs in favor of the alternatives.
Somewhat of an aside, I think this sort of behavior is far worse than what got everybody up in arms about Hexbear. I never disliked Hexbears; I see them as a tight-knit community that existed for multiple years before the Lemmy influx from the old site. I think they genuinely felt despair over the changes that federation brought to their instance and I feel sorry for them. Maybe if people make enough noise about the bad behavior of .world mods we can raise awareness and effect change.
- [email protected] instead of [email protected]
- [email protected] instead of [email protected]
- [email protected] instead of [email protected]
I’m confused I guess. You banned a lw mod, then got banned on a lw news instance, and you think it’s more than coincidence?
I guess it’d be hard to prove, but imo (which isn’t worth anything) I doubt that’s the case.
It turns out it was a coincidence, they even reverted the ban on me in the end too.
The two bans still strike me as a good example of archetypes of heavy-moderation action taken in different context. Shutting down a dissenting voice on a general/news board vs shutting down someone behaving badly in a more regulated space. I don’t even want to give the .world moderator who banned me a hard time, because I know how hard it can be trying to figure out what is going on in a conversation that just got reported by a bunch of people. The fact that they reverted it after pushback was enough for me, and hopefully it sets an example for the future.
There’s definitely a separate discussion to be had about the tendency to shut down dissent from the left in centrist/liberal spaces and characterizing it instead as ‘right-wing/russian trolling.’ Maybe that’s more comforting than sitting with the criticism, but I don’t think it’s a productive way to approach political conversations.
This is (among other reasons) why federation was never going to be a good solution . instead of fighting over which site is good and which is bad we are fighting over instances while having the same problems. P2p is the answer
I hate how quick world is to mass downvote, accuse of being a russian troll, or just straight up remove comments from people who express any sort of actual left-wing opinion. Reading through that whole comment thread there was nothing you said that came across as trolling. Its kinda exhausting how many people take any criticism of the democratic party as being support for Trump, or believe voting is the most important and only way to change anything. I get closer to just blocking world entirely every day tbh.
.world thinks if you give reasoned arguments, reputable sources, and have a logical criticism of a liberal, you’re actually just a Russian bot, China shill, trump stan, or whatever it is this week.
Being morally consistent is a negative to them and must be punished.
I love how being a liberal is looked down on for some reason.
“For some reason.”
That’s what my previous comment said.
We’re trying to make the world a better and more peaceful place instead of just sitting out votes.
I voted in 2016, 2018, 2020, 2022, 2024, every year I was legally able to vote, I even registered early when I was 17 in California. I can gladly give you proof I voted in every election I can because my state has ballot tracking.
And is it a better and more peaceful place when liberal status quo protects the companies that socially murder its citizens? Punishment of shoplifting is accepted more than trying to arrest Trump and the Jan 6 attackers? Cops can beat up protestors but not protect families from being evicted by greedy landlords?
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”
Liberals haven’t pushed for the rights of my kind. Liberals defend oppressing my kind because it was normal to hate queer people until recently. Liberal politicians didn’t push for legalization unless it was good for polling numbers. But they gladly sat with their ass on their hands while cops arrested and killed queer people for being happy with themselves.
And I would get into how liberals didn’t push for women’s rights, breaking segregation, ending wars, ending slavery, but I’m not someone who was targeted by them. Liberals don’t stand for what’s right, just what’s currently accepted.
It’s the party of the status quo, even if the status quo includes elements of fascism and oligarchy.
Liberals will soon whitewash Trump, like they whitewashed Bush and his crimes and violations of the constitution.
Biden inherited a shitshow and did some good while in the office.
I don’t agree with his stance on Israel and Palestine but I can almost promise you that it’s going to get worse for the Palestinians while the fascism and oligarchy is already getting out of control.
All the points you bring up are going to get worse because Trump is in power.
“But trump” - The only point liberals have
This is a genuine question, not some sorta gotcha or anything. What’s your opinion on the “enlightened centrist” style of centrists in the US? The sort of people that say things like “both the Democrats and Republicans are too extreme.”
Those aren’t centrists. They’re right-wing.
Yeah but that’s kinda the point. Liberalism is also right-wing compared to leftists, and even on it’s own is pretty firmly center to slighly right of center. Left of center only really happens at social democracies, and they’re still not super far left. Obviously someone in the middle of the Democrats and Republicans will also be right-wing, since neither party is actually left of center and the Republicans are currently so far right.
The Democrats are a deeply flawed party but if people can look the the Republicans and still put both parties in the same category I don’t know what to say to them.
It seems like the democratic party has become the illusion of choice. The last guy running the party was a corporate lobbyist who just recently left after the election. The new top runner just said not all billionaires are bad. Of course it requires a lot of money to run an election, so politicians are more worried about large donors than the majority of people. That means that Democrats that support corporate interests win primaries. The majority of people who vote for Democrats want free healthcare and free college and more regulations accountability for businesses and higher taxes for the wealthy. It’s not going to happen when some MBA is running the show.
So basically basically Republicans are super harmful to a ton of people and meeting in the the middle of democrats and republicans is still bad, and compromising on certain issues by doing that sort of meet in the middle approach still hurts people right? Don’t want to put words in your mouth or anything like that.
Anarchists or other very left-wing people have basically the same opinion on liberalism. It’s a very middle of the road ideology that’s favors incremental progress but doesn’t really make real change on its own, that normally has to be fought for outside the system. The Democrats are less immediately harmful to people, but neither party really does anything big enough to truly help people in a meaningful way and things have been slowly getting worse over time. And just like there are a bunch of policies you wouldn’t want to meet in the middle of, there are a bunch of things liberalism supports that are meeting in the middle of something very harmful.
I think the other big thing is the prevalence of the idea that voting for a representative is the most important thing you can do that also wears on people. Whether or not Trump or Harris won, over half the US states are unsafe for trans people, especially kids. Sure things are obviously worse with Trump, but either way for a lot of trans people things have been bad and getting worse for a long time. Same with food insecurity, housing costs, immigration, etc. All of these issues wouldn’t have meaningfully improved much with the tiny concessions that Democrats offered, and most would continue getting largely ignored until a Republican takes office and can be blamed.
I’m not saying the parties are the same, one moves us in this negative direction much faster which I why I’ve basically voted D every time I could, but voting is at most the minimum you should do. Building aid networks and horizontal power and networks to protect queer people or immigrants are all things that need to happen no matter who is in power because either way compromises and the slow advance of capitalism continues to hurt more and more people.
None of this is a person attack against you or anything either, but the way you don’t like Republicans for being too far right or centrists for being too middle of the road with fascism/the Republican party are the same basic reasons leftists dislike liberalism.
I think you misunderstood my comment if you got all of that from it.
I agree that there is a long way to go for trans people but it is getting better slowly.
Remember that the punchline in the first Ace Ventura was the trans lady?
I think we both might have misinterpreted each other a bit then. I didn’t really mean a person who said the parties were the same, but someone who says they’re extreme in opposite directions and I think you misunderstood it as the opposite, so I should have clarified a bit.
But regardless, sure, socially stuff like trans acceptance is generally improving, but that’s not really a result of Democrats or their policies, that’s a result of LGBTQ people fighting against hate and society at large becoming more accepting. No policy is responsible for increasing social acceptance, it’s the other way around. Like another user said as well, it’s only socially progressive policies that tend to recieve that treatment too, never big economic reforms. Plus that support only lasts as long as its thought politically favorable, as evidenced by the fact that in the wake of Kamala losing the DNC has been trying to push a narrative that it’s because the party is too socially progressive. The alternative is the DNC admitting that neoliberalism is unpopular, so throwing a minority under the bus is much preferable.
Economically, things haven’t been getting better for a long time. Food insecurity is extremely high right now, same with rent/housing, the climate is fucked, going go a hosptial can put you in debt for life, and corporations keep amassing more and more money and power. That process speeds up under Republicans sure, but it hasn’t been improving much for anyone but the already wealthy under Dems either.
But either way, even if the Democrats wanted to change things the system makes that basically impossible. Trying to change a system only by participating in it is just kinda a flawed idea in the first place, but that’s how liberalism does things.
I get closer to just blocking world entirely every day tbh.
Most of my blocklist is .world members, some shitjustworks, some hexbear, some .ml. And then there’s some members from a libertarian instance I never remember.
It doesn’t help that .world is the biggest one, but it feels every single smug asshole who wants to put you on their “internet arguments won comp #13” collection is from .world
To be clear, jordanlund does not moderate [email protected], but the timing struck me as an odd coincidence.
Just something else I found recently
Oh that is interesting information, thank you!
Oh that would explain a lot lol
I used to think neo-pronouns are kinda silly, and I guess I still kinda do. But there’s no skin off my back to address people in a way that they don’t find hurtful. If people tell me my actions are hurtful to them, I try and take them at face value so long as doing so wouldn’t be hurtful to others or myself. Seems like basic conscientiousness to me.
PTB. You did nothing wrong here.
My beef with neo pronouns is they are used in such a way to weaponize the “political correctness” attitude of some liberal communities
Drag is a good example because they’re a blatant troll, and pretty blatantly try to get anyone who disagrees with them about anything banned for being “transphobic”
Like it’s an obvious bit, it makes the mods and admins look like fools. Drag got banned from hexbear AND .ml for this behavior.
It’s better to live with a few trolls than intentionally make users feel unsafe.
Well that’s just not true. I disagree with Drag all the time.
Drag got banned from hexbear AND .ml
Since when are bans from those instances any kind of reference?
It’s the reason they got banned that’s important, both .ml and hexbear are pretty lgbtq inclusive, and they love a good troll. But they wouldn’t tolerate drag.
Removed by mod
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While referring to someone as per their preference is basic manners, not complicating what’s meant to be a simple, pared down system is as well. The mutual respect English-language compromise is, imo, acceptance of the already established non-gendered pronoun “they” by the referrer and the referenced.
People used to call a woman Mrs or Miss depending on her marital status, wasn’t that complicating the communication of a simple system?
Yes.
Isn’t FlyingSquid a mod there? They cooperate with one another, so if you cross one you cross both.
But yeah, doesn’t surprise me. Jordan is the same white dude who said he didn’t support BLM because protests inconvenienced him. He’s a peak liberal Zionist.
Jordan is the same white dude who said he didn’t support BLM because protests inconvenienced him. He’s a peak liberal Zionist.
That stuff was wild
Why are you bringing up his race at all as it is his views that are objectionable not his skin tone.
Have a look at the article yourself: https://www.opb.org/news/series/racenw/race-northwest-united-states-jordan-lund-portland/
It’s not my fault white dudes tend to be the only people complaining about civil rights. If you don’t like people stating facts, then maybe turn on Fox News or sub to Trump on his social media. Then you won’t have to worry about it anymore.
it’s not my fault white dudes tend to be…
So while I don’t actually disagree, I have to point out that this sounds exactly like how racists defence themselves. “It’s not my fault that black people are…”
And again I don’t think that your view is wrong, but I think we should be careful with words
Nah, I’ll continue to call out racism when I see it. There’s no need to bring up his race.
Well, when you write your next comment, don’t do it then. See, that’s how things work. You write your comments, and I write mine.
Isn’t FlyingSquid a mod there?
One will bait, then other will ban to maintain the image of propriety
No, he is not.
Yeah that tracks. Jordan’s one of the worst mods on here.
Every other instance should defederate from .world. Neoliberal fascism is no better than regular fascism.
This is the correct answer.
Yeah. Why voluntarily get the worst part of reddit moderation?
If neoliberals being banned is the worst part of Reddit to you, then you probably need banned too.
I think we’re talking past each other or something. I was meaning that LemmyWorld is a shitty, reddit style, censorship regime. Not that neolibs getting banned is bad.
I personally call them Fascism Lite™
Diet Fascism.
The issue they control some key subs, but yeah I think there is enough evidence that mods on key subs are malicious actors that are working against the fedi thesis
Since when are they neoliberal? I encounter more bleeding heart progressives on that instance than anywhere else. Sorry they don’t pass your purity test but they sure as fuck hate fascists.
Edit: ohhhh haha, I just checked your instance. Yea no wonder they aren’t leftie enough for you, go home tankie 👋
Hello red scare. It’s getting tiring.
You’re a lot of things, but not scary.
Okay I guess? I never wanted to be scary lol
Yeah jordanlund do be doing that.
Banning people because they just tell exactly what is happening 🤦🏻
Go live in trumps ass, lol
This jordanlund seems to be the rare kind of human I hate… (I generally love other people🤭)
PTB. I think you are correct in both cases.
I was the one that submitted the ban, after a number of reports. On the face of it (I am at work, so don’t always have time to deep dive), The reports did seem to align with trolling.
I had/have no idea what’s going on withe the Jordan Lund thing.
For what it’s worth I thought I was being respectful in my dissent, I was even keeping my comments to the one thread and not attempting to insult anyone. I’m entirely open to this just being coincidence.
Fair point. I’ll restore the comments and remove the ban
thank you! sorry to raise a stink, I appreciate the quick response!
Caught me on my lunch break, and this is a community I love lurking in.
Thanks!
I just want to add that it seems to me that about 90% of people accused of trolling on here do not themselves think they are trolling. Something to ponder.
Everybody is the good guy in their own story.
I think this is a related factor but not quite what I’m getting at here.
My understanding of trolling is that it is a deliberate attempt to trigger negative emotional responses and cause trouble. So users should have a good sense of whether they are or are not engaged in trolling.
So either:
A: They are lying about their intentions. B: The community and mods are ascribing ill intentions where there are none. Or C: Different people are using conflicting definitions of trolling.
While A might seem the obvious answer, I think it’s actually far less common than people think. When I go through the histories of people accused of trolling I rarely see clear evidence of it. It’s usually just a person who has a tendency to respond angrily to people they disagree with, or who has a particularly strong disagreement with the community on a particular issue that they feel passionately about.
So I usually chock these cases up to B, and I think this case is a pretty clear example. However I’d also be curious to know if C is at play here, so if you think there is another definition of trolling that differs from mine, please share it.
I’d hope that anyone online enough to become a Lemmy moderator would know better, but plenty of people think trolling means doing absolutely anything anyone might not be entirely happy with online. That definition seems to be the prevailing one on TV and radio news, so people who don’t engage with online culture would pick it up that way. That would cover things like posting a joke which was poorly received, whether it was just terrible or because it was offensive, and whether or not you knew it was potentially offensive.
There’s also the matter of whether trolling is trying to intentionally provoke people specifically by pretending to be an idiot (and looking at Wikipedia, it’s sometimes as an attempt at humour rather than to provoke - e.g. Ken M isn’t trying to upset anyone, but is pretending to be an idiot or misinformed).
So there are plenty of definitions of trolling going around, and it’s plausible that moderators might sometimes use one that’s wildly incompatible with your definition.
I mean, further looking and it’s almost certainly B. I think people like to ascribe ill-intent when they just knee-jerk to disagreement. “Trolling” here was absolutely the wrong choice of verbiage.
Trolling is generally pretext to censor content and or tone of speech
I rarely see trolling here tbh maybe dragon fucker but he is so committed to it, whatever
PTB. Throwing a fit because you pointed out their blatant transphobia
Really unsurprising considering it involved Israel. News mods usually bend over backwards like the r/worldnews to remove anything slightly critical. Especially when it’s calling out hasbara
Neo lib regime whoring do be like that
